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How to stop worrying and love the bomb?

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Ideas' started by kodysch, Apr 5, 2014.

Mods: Rainbows
  1. kodysch

    kodysch Ballista Bolt Thrower Staff Alumni
    1. Archers [Arch] (Recruiting)

    Playing archer these days can be tough. Something I've noticed is how prevalent bombs are becoming, or how more people are becoming proficient at using them. In my opinion bombs are OP right now.

    They are cheap and lethal and in the hands of a good knight are a viable medium to long range weapon. When you kill with a bomb( which is often and frequently a multi-kill) you get coins back as well; so it's not hard for a knight to have a steady supply of them.

    As an archer there are two things you can do; run away or water stun them. You don't always see the bomb being thrown considering that a knight can hurl a bomb from far away, and that if a knight is near you when he primes a bomb, you are hard pressed to survive. water arrows are only half effective as you have to hit a knight carrying a bomb towards the end of it's priming time for it to go off in his hands, otherwise he will toss it for no damage, consequential bombs are held on to longer the closer a target is, which as said above is no good for an archer.

    Somethings I've thought could be done:
    1. Increase the cost of bombs at shops
    2. decrease the amount of gold given for a bomb kill
    3. increase the amount of gold archers get for successful arrow hits to make water arrows( bombs counter) more easily available
    4. knights slowed down when holding lit bomb

    And the Idea I'd really like to see implemented...

    Make bombs easier to hit with arrows.
    this would give archers another thing to do when a knight primes a bomb, and is favored by skill, allowing for a higher level of play.
  2. bout

    bout Shark Slayer

    If an archer is good, I can't kill him with even 4 bombs. :s
    BlueLuigi likes this.
  3. NinjaCell

    NinjaCell Haxor

    Bombs are only totally lethal if a good knight catches you unawares, which doesn't really happen. Bombs are much easier to hit in water and grapples increase your horizontal speed a lot, which helps.
  4. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Players get better at game.

    Better nerf knights.

    I rarely ever use bombs against enemies.

    What's killing a archer compared to bomb jumping into their base and killing them with slashes?
  5. bout

    bout Shark Slayer

    • Off-topic badness -- No amateur grammar nazis allowed!

    //EDIT by FBB: Do not try my patience, bout! You've been around enough to know that I do not tolerate grammatical nazism of this ilk on my forums. Keep it up and you'll earn yourself a special title for being a baddie. :huh?:
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 6, 2014
    sinitreo and 101i like this.
  6. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Overall, dodging isn't that hard to do, and if a knight doesn't cook the bomb right, you can just catch it and throw it back. It's not that hard but it does require a bit of skill.

    1. Alright, maybe 30 coins? I could live with that, and it may make bombs valuable enough so that people don't bomb-shit themselves (throw all bombs on the ground) whenever they get close to another knight. I'm personally tired of knights doing that.

    2. Then they'd have to give different amounts of gold for sword kills, arrow kills, stomp kills, falling kills, keg kills, cata kills, and ballista kills. Did I get them all?

    3. More water arrow spam? The Arcrave inside all of us says, "plz no"

    4. I don't normally play the realism argument, but go outside, strap a shield-like object to your arm and run around. Now hold a ball while doing so. Does the ball slow you down at all? It shouldn't. (If it does, you may want to go see a doctor)

    ewwwww The only way to make it easier is to make archers fire faster, or to make the hit box on the arrows or bombs larger.

    Also, bomb play is already balanced. If you don't see a knight's bomb, kudos to that knight for suprising you. Also, don't think that knights don't see or get hit by bombs either. But when we do get killed by bombs, we generally just respawn, and try to get back at that knight. We don't complain about bombs being OP.
    BlueLuigi and kedram like this.
  7. bout

    bout Shark Slayer

    You missed pickaxe kill.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 5, 2014, Original Post Date: Apr 5, 2014 ---
    + Cata kill counts as fall, so does boulder kill.
  8. kodysch

    kodysch Ballista Bolt Thrower Staff Alumni
    1. Archers [Arch] (Recruiting)

    Different kill types should receive different gold generation. that's one of the problems of the balista, that you can spam the bolts and get gold for it. Eight or ten different types doesn't seem unreasonable.

    Increasing the hit box of the bombs would be the way to go.

    Bomb play with knight vs knight is balanced, but bomb play with knights vs archers is not. all a knight has to do to block a bomb is hold his shield up and be a little ways away from the bomb thrower( if not he can bounce it past your shield behind you). as I've stated above archers have it a lot harder. This would make it to where a skilled archer is rewarded for being skilled. What does it take away from the game other than easy bomb kills for knights?
  9. zerd

    zerd Arsonist
    1. SIEGE Clan - SIEGE

    It seems to me that most people find hitting bombs midair with arrows, to be too unreliable. I like your idea of doing some changes to the hitboxes to makes this a viable option to go for.

    I don't think it is for the best to alter the current hitboxes though, since placing bombs in 1x1 slot holes in walls can already be quite a task, don't know about the arrow hitbox to be honest.

    Anyway, instead I suggest adding an extra, larger collider to either bombs or arrows, which only triggers when in contact with its counterpart (arrow/bomb).

    I also think it seems reasonable to have a .cfg file etc. for balancing out the amount coins you get for each type of kill.
    Starsly and kodysch like this.
  10. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

    there is only one issue i can see with bombs, that would be the cost. Maybe making bombs cost 25 coins instead would be good. anything else brought up here i really look at as a non issue and no its not just because i main knight and only knight. infact i play archer too and know how both classes work very well. i always examine the field and see if its safe to go in, when my knights are there i usually go forward to be about 5 footsteps behind my knights as i peg away at the other knights. if i see a bomb getting cooked i definetly bolt away as fast as i can and usually im able to get far enough away to the point that the knight with the bomb made a new target. When i do indeed die to a bomb as archer its either 1. some kind of item induced bs (whether thats water ammo or not) or 2. i was plain dumb and deserved to die to that bomb. archers as it is has the tools he needs to get away from imminent danger. No bomb changes are really needed accept for a cost change.
    kodysch and Auburn like this.
  11. Tizmiz

    Tizmiz Horde Gibber Tester

    If there are any nerfs I'll just inventory a bomb and run up to an archer before taking it out.
    Arcrave and BlueLuigi like this.
  12. Potatobird

    Potatobird Bison Rider Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    I feel like the reason bombs are so annoying is because usually you get killed by a knight that was just throwing bombs into the fray and probably not even aiming specifically for you. When there's just one knight cooking a bomb you can either run away or sling a few water arrows (unless you're in the water then you're just screwed), and if you die it's pretty much your fault. In bigger battles, there are just so many knights and so many bombs that if just one of the enemy knights notices you you're toast.

    Instead of trying to make bombs less abundant, I think it would make sense to just require better timing/aim in order to actually kill an archer- right now, the explosion aoe that will one shot an archer is really big, and you're often killed when you feel like you're on the fringe of the explosion.

    Maybe some changes to the bomb aoe to increase damage closer to the middle and reduce it farther away would help with this, and make it more fun and challenging to kill an archer with a bomb - right now you can pretty much just activate a bomb and be reasonably assured that your target is dead (and they usually are).

    I realize that this would be a pretty big nerf to bombs, but maybe it could be balanced by actually increasing the total damage bombs will do in the middle - maybe a bomb that's actually touching a person would actually do 4 hearts, but that damage would very quickly fade away the farther from the center you go.

    This idea would hopefully make bombs more skill-dependent and make them feel less... oppressive? and easy to kill with.

    And on the idea of making it easier to shoot bombs with arrows, maybe a good way to do that would be if an arrow comes close to the bomb but doesn't directly hit it then it would "nick" the bomb, slightly altering the paths of both the bomb and the arrow.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
    kodysch, zerd and epenow like this.
  13. epenow

    epenow Oppressed banana cookie
    1. Archers [Arch] (Recruiting)

    • Off-topic badness -- No amateur grammar nazis allowed!

    //EDIT by FBB: I am a massive badmin, Arcrave makes me his bitch everynight, all night.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
    kodysch and BlueLuigi like this.
  14. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    And now people can stay on topic or I will lock the thread. :huh?:
    #rekt #pickingfightswithadmins #rektagain
    Sir_Walter, Guitarman and Apronymous like this.
  15. 101i

    101i Haxor Forum Moderator Tester

    This thread should be in the classic section, bombs in beta are shit compared to back then.
  16. KingXandercosm

    KingXandercosm Shipwright

    I'm a huge bomb-user. I do bomb-jumping, bomb throwing, bomb eati - wait not that! But seriously, bombs shouldn't be nerfed. A good archer can easily escape them. I find that I'm good enough to blow an archer up with my bombs about half the times I try. I think this is reasonable... Also, who gives a crap about archers?!
  17. BlueLuigi

    BlueLuigi :^) Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    As an admin, it's not a good idea to threaten using your powers because you can't handle something. :wink:

    This topic is dumb anyway, it's just another generic bitch about X feature thread, but if people stopped fucking locking them, it could all have been in one thread or so that we could collectively ignore since no one brings anything new to the table, like ever.
  18. Trumbles

    Trumbles Bison Rider

    So far, I've seen two good ideas in this thread;
    • Slightly increased cost for bombs (25 or 30 coins)
    • A more focused blast radius (the total AoE would remain the same, but the 3 heart damage area would be smaller)
    Let's face it. 5 or 10 coins is absolutely nothing to a knight, it's quite easy to rack up hundreds of coins per life, even if you're not that great. I don't see this even making much of a difference. It's kind of a "why not" sort of thing.

    I really like the idea of tweaking the blast radius of bombs, either by shrinking it, or making the max damage area smaller. No matter how much grappling around I do, it's still really hard to get away from a bomb, even when I feel like I'm on the edge of an explosion, I take damage as if I'm in the bloody center. Bombs just feel way too easy to use right now.
  19. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Deleted off-topicness/spam and handed out warnings as appropriate.
    I completely agree, BL; which is why I merely said "I'll pull rank if you break the rules" (i.e. giving out warnings/locking the thread if off-topicness continued to be the main fare of the thread). You'll note that the closest I come to "threaten using your powers because you can't handle something" is my threat of "a special title for being a baddie" and even this, I would suggest, is less about me getting my knickers in a knot over someone indulging in a habit I personally don't like and more a case of my saying "if you do this thing, which degrades the forum experience of everyone, I will mark you for what you are" -- so sort of like a scarlet letter (Nathaniel Hawthorne, anyone?), only in this case the option always remains for epenow to repent of being an (incompetent) grammatical dick and have his normal title restored.
    If people are capable of using such threads constructively, sure. But if they keep treating it like it's the rudding Spam Can then I fail to see how they deserve to keep the thread. As it is @Trumbles has made a decent contribution to the thread (and you make a good point about collating all such threads into one) so it will remain open.

    @epenow --- Witty as your edit was, it would have been better to have done it as a FTFY rather than editing my text directly. This is because, as it currently stands, you are putting words in my mouth-- something which is both confusing and misleading for other forum users who (unlike the mods) cannot see the edit history of a post:
    epenow edits.png epenow edits2.png

    I have reverted your edit and would request that in future you refrain from making out a staff member has said something they have not. :huh?:

    For everyone else, please either keep to the topic as espoused by the OP or do not post. Those are your two options, pick one and stick to it.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
    kodysch likes this.
  20. PandemicCommander

    PandemicCommander Shipwright

    When @Trumbles and @kodysch have a problem dealing with bombs, there's a problem. (Especially since half of archer complaint threads end with Trumbles explaining why he has no problem with whatever it is)

    I think there are 2 main frustrations with bombs here, at least to archers.

    1) A knight who can cook a bomb well can wreck most archers. It's true that you can take off running once they pull the bomb out, but it means abandoning whatever your currently doing. So even if an archer can get away from the bomb, it's usually enough to scare him away a ways or mess up what hes doing.

    2) Randomly thrown bombs wreck archers. Once a game heats up, especially in 10 v 10 or more matches, there are bombs all over. It's easy to be in a fight with an enemy archer, only to have a stray bomb fly out of melee and waste you. Nobody was really aiming, so you don't really see it coming at all. I find this is more of a problem for archers playing a support roll to knights (the "Correct" roll for archers) and is just plain punishing. I cant think of anything more frustrating in all of KAG than dropping 150 gold on bomb arrows only to have a bomb fly in out of nowhere and take me out.

    Out of the suggested fixes, I like the fixed blast radius idea the most. The bigger hitbox for arrow collisions seems really interesting to me and could be a lot of fun, but doesn't do much for the second issue.
    However, If that WERE implemented, I very much like this https://forum.kag2d.com/threads/bomb-tweaks.19363/ idea here. Having an arrow hitting a bomb make it "your" bomb, so you can kill any enemy with it and get the credit and gold.

    Upping bomb cost is simple enough, may be a bit instutive to overall gameplay, but I don't think it's too bad. Making knights think a bit before tossing bombs around would definitely fix this.
    Sir_Walter, kodysch and zerd like this.
Mods: Rainbows