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Devlog KAG KAG Build 1712 – Hotfix(es) and Accumulated Changes

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Geti, Dec 24, 2015.

  1. Verrazano

    Verrazano Flat Chested Haggy Old Souless Witchy Witch Witch THD Team Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. Practitioners of War Extreme Revolution - POWER

    • Builders have always made to many coins it's kind of ridiculous I think raising the amount of coins per a heart would be good idea.
    • Mines we're meant to be placed ahead of a battle not into a battle. I'd really like to still avoid people throwing them into the midst of a fight. The mine timer increase wasn't actually as significant as everyone seems to believe. Archers have always been able 'rape' mines. We might still decrease the mine timer, as we've done some other changes with them that nobody has seemed to notice.
    FuzzyBlueBaron likes this.
  2. TheAverageMan

    TheAverageMan Shark Slayer
    1. DUCKS - We Love DUCKS

    I see where you're coming from, but the problem with that is that you only have so many coins to spend before the round starts, which usually ends up with everyone buying bombs > mines. Also, there's really only so many bushes on the map to hide mines before they get destroyed, so after they do get destroyed you either have to hope someone is blind to your mines or forced to throw them in battle, as opposed to sneakily hiding them. And I think people want to use their mines as soon as they can because players tend to pick them up.

    I think the idea of placing mines before battle sounds cool on paper, but it really limits how players should play the game where as before you could use mines in a sneaky manner or just chuck them into battle. I don't think it's a good idea to force the mechanic onto the player in that way where you can only use mines in the sneaky way. Obviously it's still possible to place mines in battle, but atm the current build really puts a cap on it making it super hard to do so.
    Not saying that the previous mines where 100% perfect either.
    kutgw tho
    also, maybe instead of mines being an instant kill, why don't they just give 3 hearts damage and 1 heart splash damage? Maybe you guys have already considered this, but it could balance things nicely, especially since it would give kegs their no.1 spot back in terms of how much damage they deal -could balance the hierarchy of weapon damage nicely, I don't know. It would put a bigger emphasis on groups of mines while having 1 mine still be moderately effective on it's own. Maybe even dick around with it and have it only deal 2 hearts, just throwing ideas out there.
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2015
    Yagger, Redshadow6 and MadRaccoon like this.
  3. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    I'd argue that mine use "sneakily" is not forced on you, it's just more practical. If you want a grenade to toss into a group of enemies, use a bomb like you always have. You can use mines for area denial and a psychological threat against knights - archers and builders do indeed counter them but you'd be surprised how often the archer targeting the mine leads to one of their knights getting damaged or killed.

    You dont need bushes to put mines in, dark tunnels are perfectly suitable. You can also include a mine as a (transport) tunnel defense or trap, depending on who's tunnel it is. There are also more creative cases like dropping activated mines through doors, or simply placing them on the enemy's front door, requiring them to either expose themselves and try to grab it or clear it (letting you in), or detonate it (blowing up their front door).

    Again, I think that the current deploy time is a bit much - but otherwise I think they're fine.

    Re; the splash damage thing - 3 hearts is an instant kill for everyone except knights. I'd rather stay away from more items that deal that sort of damage (bombs already fill it).
  4. nickkardash

    nickkardash Shark Slayer

    my vote is that changing the coin system was lame. I never thought it was bad, but now I do. Takes forever to get enough coins to do anything with, it doesn't make the game more fun, just slower and more frustrating. bomb spamming can be exciting! and I thought mines used to be a lot of fun, now there back to being lame and something to be mostly forgotten. Also, why why why reck our precious trampoline towers with changing the way the tramps work? now they are something almost worthless, really just a joke to bounce dead bodies on. A lot of these changes are making the game less fun, "fixing" things that aren't broken. Why not focus on adding new things to the game instead of tweaking things that don't need it?
  5. bru-jaz

    bru-jaz Bison Rider

    I meant this
    After playing a while, i found that since the update is ridiculous hard ,for a shitty player as myself, to gain coins fighting as knight.. Ive killed 3 guys in a triple-kill, it only gave me 60 coins. Ive killed 6-7 guys in one life ,wich is quite odd that i manage to do that, and only gave me 100 coins.. Really, i can't see what you are trying to do here.
    Ive read a lot of "great uptade, less bomb spam", but you can still manage to farm coins as builder in a cheap- dishonourable way (you still could get more coins building random shit with 30stone/100wood resources than killing an enemy as knight, ive just tested it.) Fun fact is that builders dont really use coins necessarily, so why is easier for them to get coins?
    And this gets together with the mine change: you hardly kill something with the mines now they last 1 year to deploy (most of the time they get destroyed or stealed since enemies can drink a coffe and read a book in the lapse the mine activates).
    So it results as working really hard to buy something that now does not compensate the money you spend even when you kill something with it.

    I really apreciate the work of the whole KAG team. but i don't think this update goes in the right direction to making the game funnier (or keeping it fun)
  6. toothgrinderx

    toothgrinderx Horde Gibber Staff Alumni Tester

    Garbage garbage garbage, screw the tramps, they were 'ok' before but now you can't even fight while holding one. Mines are whatever, pleb weapons anyways.

    The real problem is this dumbass new coin system, great job m8's. it now takes 5-6 full health kills to afford maaayybbee 4 bombs. Bombs are a knights god damn bread and butter. It wasn't the easiest thing in the world to score 4 bombs before but now it's like they're power items cost wise. Everyone bitches and moans about bomb radius etc etc but you know how fucking hard it is to efficiently double (or triple) bomb jump over the enemy tower and then use your leftover bomb to damage it a bit? Now it's tiresome to even acquire enough bombs to try. Forward builder structures are so OP now it's stupid.

    The bottom line is why in hell are two people who don't even spend any time at all playing the game the ones deciding on these god awful balance changes. The community has been almost unanimously against every change so pls stop ruining this shred of a game some of us stil play for fucks sake.

    (Also every change has been anti knight, how bout get good plebs instead of nerfing the class?)
  7. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    3 mad folks in a row: we've said why and how the update was forced out. It shouldn't be hard to infer that the coin changes were not in a state fit for the public, but it was that or have a literally unplayable (as in, no servers) game.

    The coins will be readjusted to be fairer to everyone in the next patch, but will not reward overkill. 60c from a mine kill and 200 from a keg triple is stupid, and always has been.

    You'll manage to get by until they're adjusted, I believe in you.
    tru0067, Obione5256, Mazey and 3 others like this.
  8. Noburu

    Noburu Dirty, DRUNK, Hillbilly Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    Its okay Geti we still love you:

    Geti, tru0067, MadRaccoon and 2 others like this.
  9. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    @Verra's old comment that he deleted.

    Not all the changes were a nerf to knights, but they were a nerf to fun :thumbs_up:. Only good change I've seen is the change to the coin system, which was incomplete (all you needed to do was just double what everything gives you before rolling out the update, I don't see the problem).
    mehwaffle10 likes this.
  10. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    i saw the comment too and do not know why he deleted it. Either way the complaints towards verra's game activity is that if you dont actively play pub games you dont see how the objects actually work. For example, in a 5 vs 5 game with friends you could simply hop over mines and deal with the 1/2 enemy knights you have the fight. While in a 10 vs 10 with 4 or 5 mines scattered on the battlegrounds you would have more tedious jumping and difficulty playing. I havent played recently enough to give an opinion on the changes but i can get where tooth was coming from questioning whether the intern/new developers understand how the game is daily(because some people like tooth have no lives and just game on kag:wink:)
  11. Verrazano

    Verrazano Flat Chested Haggy Old Souless Witchy Witch Witch THD Team Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. Practitioners of War Extreme Revolution - POWER

    I deleted it because, people will be butt hurt regardless of what I say and it doesn't add much. With regards to where I play I pretty much just play on the populated us/eu servers so 16-20 players. With regards to mines, there isn't really much problem with them imo, the only thing people are really complaining about is that the want to be able to throw mines and have them land ready to explode. We're already reducing the priming time on the mines so I don't see much issue with that, and I don't think mines are going to change much more after this next patch. They are pretty much where we want them. Coin system, everyone should already understand where that's headed and why it's headed that direction.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2016
    FuzzyBlueBaron likes this.
  12. toothgrinderx

    toothgrinderx Horde Gibber Staff Alumni Tester

    As if you have some deep rooted wisdom on kag fixes. Lets compromise, make bombs 10 coins.
  13. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Just to respond directly to Fuzzle, even though its been deleted and I know it feeds him. Seems like he accrued another warning ban but whatever.
    No, KAG is a poorly adapted SVN to hg migration and has not swapped over to a flow workflow or anything like that, and most of the development happens directly in the default branch. It uses age old compilers and has code buried in there from the mid 00s. There's a fragile named-branch based perl-and-sh build system holding everything together. If you've ever worked in a legacy codebase, you'll understand.
    My best guess is that you're either being deliberately antagonistic as always, or have never done real maintenance work. Out there be dragons. Often they go untamed.

    But yeah sure, we were all trounced by your shining wisdom once again. Feel free to leave forever, the mode of development clearly offends your superior intellect and wit and to be blunt, it's very unlikely to change on this project.

    Short version: We work with what we're stuck with. I'll not be using crimson in future but that doesn't mean I'm interested in porting KAG. Please stop being an arsehole about it, or consider leaving.

    E: about the coins - next build it should be 5c per heart of damage, and 10c per kill. IMO that's a sensible compromise that pays dividends for splash damage and last-hits, and should result in larger payouts for the average player than the current under-rewarding system. No need for almost-free bombs.
  14. JayP9

    JayP9 HSJJRF Staff Alumni Donator

    Sorry for asking but why would we change the coin system anyways if everyone is reasonably happy with how it is ? Its been the same way for a long time and we've had no problems with it , new players already struggle heaps on getting coins , IMO this would literally make it even harder. Is there going to be changes on the building side as well?
    bru-jaz likes this.
  15. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    *quietly raises hand*

    Uhh, I've never liked the way coins were showered down on knights like free candy. I've just never been butthurt enough to bitch about it. So maybe what you actually mean is "if there's not a screaming outcry about it?" in which case the answer is maybe bc 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' doesn't apply to things that are semi-broken. If coins are wonky, why not fix if possible? Eh? Eh? :huh?:
  16. toothgrinderx

    toothgrinderx Horde Gibber Staff Alumni Tester

    This sounds perfectly reasonable

    Edit - maybe make it 15 for a kill so you would still get a bomb for killing an archer at full hp, since if they kill you they would be able to buy 2 water or fire arrows with the loot.
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2016
  17. bru-jaz

    bru-jaz Bison Rider

    so the knight's prices will be:
    1 bomb = 1 kill (except for the archer as tooth said)
    1 waterbomb = 1 knight kill / builder-archer + hit a 2nd one
    1 mine = 2 knights / 3 archers / 2builders + hit a 3rd one
    1 keg = 4 knights / 6 archers / 5 builders
    ballista = 5 knights / 8 archers / 6 builders
    All of above without counting the coin drop of dying. Wich ive never understood.
    Am i right?
  18. Asu

    Asu THD Team THD Team Forum Moderator

    Full knight kill = 5*4 + 10 = 30c
    Full builder kill = 5*3 + 10 = 25c
    Full archer kill = 5*2 + 10 = 20c

    You're right.

    I think it's a fairly good idea. Newbie archers are pretty easy to kill as a knight, so they wouldn't become a coin machine.
  19. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    The changes were motivated in large part by the massive payouts people were getting from mines, because the damage they do was always paid in full even on someone with half a heart. This led to mine kills giving a payout of enough coins to buy another mine. On inspection, this meant keg kills could often pay out several hundred coins - while great for the knight who could now afford more kegs, it was clear enough that something had to change.

    Don't get me wrong - the currently-public coin implementation was not fit for release, but the previous one had some serious issues and was worth replacing.

    Unless the archer is flat broke, or you're killing them from a distance with a bomb, a knight will always get a bit of extra money from the coins their quarry drops on death. I feel like 1 bomb per kill is getting silly anyway, but you do have to factor in the coins dropped on death as well.
    We'll see how it goes and which way it needs adjusting after trying the 5 per heart, 10 per kill system; either way it'll be significantly more and fairer payouts than you're getting currently.

    @bru-jaz yes that seems right. I haven't checked every sum but seems like you're on the right track.
    bru-jaz, Asu, JayP9 and 3 others like this.
  20. Obione5256

    Obione5256 Shark Slayer

    How will damage under a heart be handled? (e.x. Builder's pickaxe) And if you kill someone with environmental damage (e.x. falling, collapses, drowning) that attribute you the kill, will you still receive the damage coins from however many hearts they had left?