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Knight Changes General (ignore the op)

Discussion in 'Balance' started by Duplolas, Dec 19, 2013.

  1. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    912
    I know the reaction most of you will be having is "Is this kid dumb" or "This is a dumb idea" or something along those lines when first entering this thread. But I think this is something that should be brought up and discussed because it is one of the primary skills of a knight that makes him so powerful.

    Currently double slash allows you to climb over tall walls, swim faster in water, and basically kill anyone you want. 1 Slash kills archers. 1 Slash and 1 Jab kills builders. 2 Slashes kills knights.

    Most of the complaints about knight stem from the fact that he has such a large amount of maneuverability and power because of the double slash. But a discussion specifically about double slash has never been created.

    I personally think that having double slash removed would be a great idea that would really balance the game evenly. I primarily play knight and I always find surprising how easy it is to kill anyone who isn't a knight. There is always talk about giving archers more health or more damage to better fight off knights, but what really is needed is change in the knight's stats, not the other classes.

    Removing double slash allows for better combat against all classes. In knight v. knight battles, people can actually have fun fighting rather than just getting double slash spammed, stunned, and killed in an instant. Knight v. archer battles may not change much since they can still be 1 hit by a slash, but now they have a chance in water, as well as being able to not get double slashed from where they hang. Knight v. builder, just like with archer, now have a better chance of escaping from knights.

    So I know this is a very drastic suggestion to make, which is why I would like to hear as many opinions on the idea as possible.
     
    epenow and crackwise like this.
  2. RadioActive

    RadioActive Guest

    That's all what I had to say. Thanks.
     
    CowboyDan, MadDog, Piano and 23 others like this.
  3. Landoo2

    Landoo2 Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    186
    i would agree to this, it would make knight vs knight battles so much excitinger then it is now, it wouldnt just take 10 seconds to kill each other, it would maybe take 20 or so... and by the way... its not much skill, to load a double slash, get the enemy with the firstone that breaks his shield, and the second slash hits, and to jab him once, so a knight can do 3 hearts damage, in maybe 5 seconds...and i think... its almost over if your enemy has 1 heart, and you got 4.. i think thats not very fair it wouldnt change much with archers and knights but... in my opinion archers should really be a distence fighter, not a meele, and builders should build the base, and not fighting with pickaxes.. thats why i agree this suggestion.
     
  4. WarrFork

    WarrFork フォーク Donator Tester

    Messages:
    1,412
    Just no, learn to play this game.
     
    CowboyDan, MadDog, Piano and 5 others like this.
  5. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    912
    I know how to play the game. The reason why I think removing double slash is a good idea is because it will make it slightly harder to play knight. Now you aren't the definition of death, moving down anything that is not other knights.

    How about you be productive to the debate. Instead of saying it is dumb, explain why you think that. This is a discussion on a key part of the game and just saying something is dumb without giving a reason why makes you look dumb.

    In fact, Rule 4 for posting in suggestions is
    It goes on to say
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
  6. Kouji

    Kouji Cold, Uncaring, Sadistic, Evil and Cruel Meanie Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. MOLEing Over Large Estates - [MOLE]
    2. REKINS OF SEAS: Super Crew of Ultimate Havoking 2: Return of King of KAG: Chapter 420blazeit - REKIN

    Messages:
    2,910
    Problem is Duplolas that you literally picked the least op thing about knights. If you had stated something like "Slash Stomping is OP" maybe there'd be more to discuss, but you didn't.
     
    MadDog, Piano, Brandon816 and 2 others like this.
  7. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    912
    I consider double slash more over powered than slash stomping. The fact that you can do atleast 3 hearts of damage essentially any time you hit someone with your double slash (plus a jab) is extremely over powered.

    Slash stomping requires more skill (in some cases), where as double slash is simply a way to spam and kill your enemy with ease. In cases where you are 1v1ing another knight, it is simply who ever swings first wins. There is no way to defend yourself if you don't swing first. You are dead. Even if you shield you lose 3 hearts. There is almost no coming back from that.

    Slash stomping also doesn't get rid of the bonus swimming speed that knights have because of their double slash.

    Slash stomping also doesn't get rid of the fact that knights can climb large walls with their double slash.

    IMO, double slash leads to more deaths than slash stomping. In some cases where terrain permits, slash stomping could be considered more over powered than a double slash. But double slash affects more aspects of the game than simple damage.

    What I mean by all of this is that double slashes have a much broader use than just for damage purposes. The discussion on them has way more Pros and Cons than Slash Stomp. It also has a lot larger impact on the game than really any other aspect of knight. Try playing a game without double slashing at all. I have. The difference is astonishing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
    epenow likes this.
  8. KaiserBolt

    KaiserBolt Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    18
    To be honest the only time double slash is really TRULY useful is against a turtling knight. If it's against any other class or a knight that isn't blocking, single slashes are usually the best way to go, as you can use quick snake strikes to maximize your range while dancing back out of theirs. I only charge double slashes against turtlers, when I've still got some travel time between a target/groups of targets, or when in water.

    As far as running up walls, there's very few cases where double slash will be more effective than single slash, and usually it's only good for jumping less when breaking blocks.

    **Edit**
    I suppose I should clarify that no, I do not believe double slashes should be removed. They're a tool for select cases that would otherwise require a stomp / bomb / other consumables which are not available at all times.
     
  9. Galen

    Galen Forum Administrator Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    1,236
    Let's just remove all weapons and play minecraft!
     
    PUNK123, icemusher, MadDog and 5 others like this.
  10. Knighthart

    Knighthart is love Donator

    Messages:
    151
    That's kind of the point.
     
  11. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    912
    So with a turtling knight, would you say it is fair that with a double slash it does atleast 2 damage and then 3 if you include a jab?

    As for running up walls. Double slashes can really help you. I don't know if this is still able to be done, but if so, it proves my point. https://forum.kag2d.com/threads/the-thread-i-already-have-but-need-another-for-beta.15465/

    You would be surprised how much further a double slash can get you up a wall. Just doing a straight run up of the wall with a double slash, and correct me if I am wrong, can get you a good 2 blocks up higher. Not only that, but if there are archers shooting at you from the top of the ledge, even if you don't make it over the wall, you swing still hits them if they are about 1-2 blocks above you.

    Also think of destroying blocks. There are cases where you use your first slash gets you up high enough to destroy a block. I have noticed this quite commonly where a double slash is require to take out a block that I wouldn't be able to reach with a single slash.

    Should a knight really be able to get up that high, do that much damage to people and buildings, and take out 3/4th of a person's health when they are shielding?
     
  12. Knighthart

    Knighthart is love Donator

    Messages:
    151
    So basically your builders are shit?
     
  13. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    912
    No. Think of it this way.

    If a builder has to build 11 blocks up to keep a knight from simply double slashing up to the top thats 110 stone for a 1x11 tower. So to make a tower that is thick and tall enough would, IMO, have to be 3x11. That adds up to 330 stone for a semi-safe tower.
     
  14. Knighthart

    Knighthart is love Donator

    Messages:
    151
    Now you're moving the goalpost. The only problem you mentioned was double slashing. You don't need a 3 tile thick tower to prevent double slashing.
    Besides that, archers could do the same thing without any problems.

    IMO putting x stone blocks down in a couple of seconds that cannot be surpassed without tools or a builder is way stronger than a double slash.
    I'm out.
     
    Piano and Kouji like this.
  15. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    912
    You are thinking too linearly. Yes, you don't need a 3 block thick tower to stop a double slash, but you need a 3 block thick tower to stop everything else the enemy team has at their disposal. The point that you missed was that having a builder use 330 resources to build a tower instead of say a 3x8, 240 resources, is a significant difference.

    Yeah if there was no such thing as boats, bombs, seige vehicles, bomb arrows, drills, and anything else that can do damage to a block, a 1x11 tower would work really well. Nothing would be able to get through that. But in KAG all these things exist. Resources and time are limited in a fast paced game like KAG. The time it takes to build a tower also includes the time it takes to mine the resources, not just to build it. Then you have to repair it, put doors, walling in the back, and so on to make it actually useful. After everything is said and done you have used up a lot more time and resources than you should need as a builder.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
  16. crackwise

    crackwise Shipwright

    Messages:
    52
    I agree with Duplolas actually. Double slash means instant death most of the time. Of course you can be careful and block the first one but stil, in a game where even little ping differences matter this can be sometimes very random.

    Instead of double slash perhaps something else can be implemented like this:

    -Shield breaker hit
    (charged, but takes slightly less time to charge than the current double slash)
    -The normal slash does not stun (i.e. doesn't disrupt the block) but deals 2 hearts of damage as usual. So this charged shield disrupting attack basically disrupts enemy's block, deals 1 heart damage (when it hits the shield) and further leaves stun time for 1 jab. So in total you deal 2 hearts of damage.
    -If it hits directly not hitting the shield, than deals 3 hearts of damage.

    I don't know if it would be more fun or not. Honestly, I am also very used to the current mechanics, but still I believe there is definetely room for improvements and some tinkering.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
    Brandon816 and Duplolas like this.
  17. KaiserBolt

    KaiserBolt Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    18
    Absolutely. If someone sits there and stays in range for both slashes, knowing full well you're charging up for a double slash, they SHOULD eat the damage. There are a number of ways out of this situation, but it's on them for losing momentum in the fight.

    It's worth investigating but I don't believe you can wall run too much higher than single slash wall run. In any case the number of times where I've encountered an obstacle that requires a double slash wall run are extremely rare. And in the event that it's higher than a quick wall run I usually just bomb-jump it anyway to avoid potentially getting blocked / attacked on the way up.

    If it takes a double slash wall run to get up and damage the block and they don't catch you in the act of slowly knocking a hole in their base, it's not the double slash that is the problem. You could do a whole lot more damage unattended as a builder, an archer with fire / bomb arrows, or knight with a couple bombs.

    Yes. I don't believe the second slash has that much of an impact on anything besides knight vs. knight combat.
     
  18. Asu

    Asu THD Team THD Team Forum Moderator

    Messages:
    1,537
    I dislike much this idea. It would make knights useless and everyone will become archer.
     
  19. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    Better idea. Increase all classes HP by 1 each. Archers 3, builders 4, knights 5. This will increase skill ceiling for knights tremendously (No more 1 knight wiping out a whole base unscathed unless he's TRULY god tier), give archers more survivability, and... make builders better? Yeah but seriously, 1 extra heart fixes everything.
     
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  20. KaiserBolt

    KaiserBolt Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    18
    I wouldn't go THAT far. ::D:

    I'm not sure it's needed but I would definitely be up to playing a few games to try this out.
     

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