1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hey Guest, is it this your first time on the forums?

    Visit the Beginner's Box

    Introduce yourself, read some of the ins and outs of the community, access to useful links and information.

    Dismiss Notice

Knight Sword Range Tweak Request.

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Ideas' started by LostPix, Oct 31, 2013.

Mods: Rainbows
  1. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

    Messages:
    574
    Not sure if suggestion or bug, but I'm posting this here, I noticed that knight's sword has extended range beyond where sprite indicates which leads to problems, I bet many times you wonder why on earth did a knight caught you with jab or slash even if you jumped away.

    I have tested this in Sandbox mode where latency has no existence, you can try this yourself and find out how bullshitty the sword range is.

    [​IMG]

    Just to say this shortly, it might be nothing, just a hassle, but in multiplayer where you have varied latency it does matter because that range increases or decreases constantly.
     
    Guitarman likes this.
  2. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    I think theres a difference in hit boxes vs. class size. If you remember in halo 3, they added the ability to play as an Elite. If you did, your head shot hit box was slightly smaller than a spartan. In all of the other halo games, despite the Elite being slightly smaller, they gave both races the same hit box size.

    I think this is exactly like that.
     
  3. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

    Messages:
    574
    It's basically sprite being inaccurate with displaying it properly but the setting itself is an integer in one of the knight scripts, so there is two choices devs can make to change this, either fixing sprites or reducing it in script file.
     
  4. slash range will almost always be momentum based, jab range doesnt matter since you should use jabs ONLY in proximity.

    case dismissed
     
  5. Crabmaster

    Crabmaster Bison Rider
    1. Zen Laboratories

    Messages:
    322
    This explains a lot...Hitboxes in this game are so wonkey, and kinda get annoying when the weird hitboxes are added ontop of lag...

    I believe, at least from what it looked like when testing just now, slashes extend a pixel or three further out than their sprites, too. hmm...
     
  6. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    1. "Hitbox" isn't really the right word to be using here, there's no box involved as far as the actor is concerned.
    2. The range is tuned to make gameplay sense, the sprite is tuned to make graphical sense (any further and I'm going to have to dislocate the knights arm in 3 places). I've considered adding an overlayed "chop" layer or something quite a few times because this seems to confuse people a lot, even though most games do the same thing we do and use an arc or box or similar area to determine what should be hit. Since when did the pixels have to touch exactly? :^)
    3. All of the classes have exactly the same radius with regards to hit detection, and I'd appreciate it if people would confirm things they "thought" before posting them.
    In early builds of KAG, we actually had exactly accurate "hitboxes", and a large percentage of testers complained that hitting anything was a nightmare. Considering it's a 2d game with a lot of movement on both attacker and defender's side, increasing the hitbox solves the problem of "false hits" without modifying things with lag (and therefore giving undue tolerance to laggy players).

    I consider this an extreme nitpick and a request made without considering the ramifications - try modifying the range on your server (knightlogic.as) and watch as knights start complaining they can't hit things properly.
     
  7. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    Sorry, I was in essay mode. College essays have me over describing everything.

    And you are right. I can imagine the troubles that would ensue if there was exactly accurate hitboxes. I'm a bad archer already, I would never be able to hit anything. ::P:
     
  8. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

    Messages:
    574
    @Geti

    I don't think it's a nitpick, how would you explain the disadvantages with knight combat, I can play with bad ping and overall be better in combat than with good ping, when I try to hit someone who has high ping the hits don't often register as they should or the fact that people stab me through my shield block, it's totally not a nitpick, it's a viable complaint, most of the time now I don't bother playing melee class and I think most people do the same because it's rock paper and scissors in melee. People with worse connection should be at disadvantage to be honest, there are local servers for a reason.
     
    Crabmaster likes this.
  9. how can you actually be better with higher ping? you lose all the mobility that is required to stomp the other team. sure that that slash that once or twice misses you but its not a big deal if you cant shield a bomb or double bombjump in a middle of a fight
     
  10. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

    Messages:
    574
    I found double slashing immensely destructive with higher ping. I really love this one, some players warp right into you and kill you but I understand it has to do with their terrible connection, it's still very annoying when you have great net connection and this happens to you.

    Edit:

    This is also a question that might be offtopic but I notice that archer can rotate arms freely in 360 degrees and it does not use frames unlike knight who has premade angles, was there a possibility or was this tested with knight before? Wouldn't that fix issues if arms were done like this?
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2013
  11. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    What the fuck would making knight arms swivel fix, exactly? You're talking out of your ass now.

    I'm honestly mad that the devs reduced slash range earlier, combat lost so much fluidity. Combat in early beta was a fucking nightmare as Geti pointed out, when slash range was buffed and charge speed increased, it became incredibly fun. What we have now is probably the best middle ground for people who value fun and for people who like to nitpick about pixels because someone reck'd them.

    Stop fucking talking.
     
    Ej likes this.
  12. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

    Messages:
    574
    Why are you so mad at me, can't I have my own discussion thread without people shitting all over it? Thank you.

    The offtopic part of the post was referring to something else, maybe just in case I feel like making a mod and asking is it's a possibility.

    This community is nothing but annoying, you can't discuss anything like a normal mature person here because people start to get pissed off right away, so please keep some decency. I wasn't supporting this game for over two years to be treated like this.
     
  13. Nighthawk

    Nighthawk gaurenteed shitter

    Messages:
    793
    For what's it's worth, I second the movement to at least give visual feedback on exactly how far each attack is reaching. I've been hit by nothing way too many times - it's like Knights' swords create a small space of incredible air pressure around their strikes that has the power to slice through your flesh.
     
    Klokinator and Raelian like this.
  14. Raelian

    Raelian Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    232
    Seems a bit annoying to get hit (or hit others) despite the little sprites on your screen showing that you didn't even touch the guy.
     
  15. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    People with worse connection being at a disadvantage is a consequence of information theory, not anything we're doing - if you actually read what I said, we want to avoid undue tolerance for laggy players, while keeping the game playable for everyone.

    The only way to give everyone "the same" game is to run separate simulations of the world serverside emulating different pings for different players or re-calculate the sim based on packets coming from laggy players - something which takes a stupid amount of CPU, when the game already maxes some boxes CPU as-is.
    That technique is used in the source engine - unfortunately we don't have as many network engineers or experienced programmers to throw at the game as valve.


    Re: why Monsteri is mad; he was one of the testers during the time of attacks accurate to the current exact pixels of the knight.

    Re: using sprite layers to animate the knight arms - no it wouldn't, the knight actually has a set range of attacks, unlike the archer that can aim 360 degrees. The discrepancy this thread is complaining about comes from the range being larger than the sprite might suggest.

    Re: being better with high ping, who are you playing with? I guarantee any good knight will hand your ass to you if they have a better ping at least 4 times out of 5.
     
    LostPix and jackitch like this.
  16. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

    Messages:
    574
    Thanks for responding and clarifying, does not justify being mad especially if you belong to a closed group of testers, that's not the way to bring it out on someone else, it just stirs the pot more.

    My intention was for a sprite fix or fix in script file, both ways both would satisfy me, if it's meant to stay this way due to issues then let it be but at least sprite fix to better indicate that, I don't think you will need to make arms larger, just the sword tip, you can possibly extend it so it's more like a long sword maybe or as you mentioned having some kind of effect if that does not work out.

    Soldat had this hip rotation kind of thing so it might work better than moving arms, that way knight could freely turn around maybe, I saw this being done with head before, someone modded head to turn around as you moved the cursor.

    I've played on US server where my ping was 133, defeated entire wave of players going across, all I had to do it time my double slash while standing away in safe zone then just use the fact that sprite wasn't indicating distance right and use that to my advantage, so I kept slashing players with invisible tip.
     
  17. alex4864

    alex4864 Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    40
    Aside from balance changes (mine are unpopular/controversial, so I shall refrain), I think making the sword's motion lines (what are those things called?) extend a few more pixels to represent the area it strikes would wrap up this problem neatly. That being said, it doesn't take that long to instinctively learn where the sword's reach.

    ASAP, for sure
     
  18. Vermilicious

    Vermilicious Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    232
    I have to say I agree on this one. It's particularly unfunny to be stabbed through a gap in a wall, even when you're not standing right next to it, resulting in a quick death for a weak builder. It has happened to me many times.

    Not to mention latency issues that makes it near impossible to put up a block between you and an enemy in time to stop them or place many blocks quickly, but that's another matter.
     
Mods: Rainbows