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MLK s3 Discussion

Discussion in 'Competitive KAG Archive' started by mcrifel, Nov 3, 2016.

  1. mcrifel

    mcrifel Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester
    1. MIST

    Messages:
    582
    it's not really a bug as I am pretty sure bombs are supposed to explode when hitting a saw. imo you could totally do it in pubs and clan wars.
     
  2. bunnie

    bunnie Haxor Tester

    Messages:
    1,271
    it's allowed and it's fine everywhere, 90% of admins are just faggots that don't like when people rek them
     
  3. epsilon

    epsilon Assonist THD Team Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. Gather Oceania
    2. KAG World Cup 2018

    Messages:
    505
    upload_2017-1-30_11-41-26.png
    @mcrifel if you're not going to bother trying in the third round what is the point of it? Saying "it worked when we vsed surge" doesn't justify that the rule works and gives both teams an equal chance because I'm pretty sure eu-us ping isn't as bad as eu-aus or us-aus.
    I highly recommend you change this rules to the one Cruxiat suggested here. This gives both teams an equal turn to attack with the advantage, one on each team's preferred server, so it's completely equal. If we did it this way in the TOXIC vs MIST match we wouldn't have needed to do the pointless 3rd round since we capped the flag on aus faster than you did on eu.
    I have to admit the first two rounds of our match were great but the third round was shit since you didn't really try and you didn't have an equal chance at winning. gg though.

    Also maybe add a rule to make sure only 2-flag maps are used in matches. There is only one 1-flag map in the mapcycle afaik so in our match we had to play that same map twice to ensure it was fair since we played that map first round before we realised.
     
  4. RampageX

    RampageX Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    195
    Water is cancer can we remove this fucking shit already.
     
  5. Coroz

    Coroz B R B Donator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. [AG#] - Ancient Gear

    Messages:
    138
    water is life, if you dont drink it you die
     
  6. mcrifel

    mcrifel Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester
    1. MIST

    Messages:
    582
    What about friendly water?
     
  7. Coroz

    Coroz B R B Donator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. [AG#] - Ancient Gear

    Messages:
    138
    that was my idee for a mod, that all items are neutral in damage
     
  8. epsilon

    epsilon Assonist THD Team Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. Gather Oceania
    2. KAG World Cup 2018

    Messages:
    505
    Maybe use sponges to combat this since they will be changed to 15 coins next build [link].
     
  9. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    Messages:
    899
    We could use Gather's feature where water stuns team mates (doesn't hit them directly).

    Also, we could reduce sponge's cost without waiting for next build.

    I don't want water arrows removed completely because I feel like archers aren't very useful without water. They can't protect themselves easily and they aren't much use as support. SURGE demonstrated this when they ran 4 knights up until I got the water out.

    As for internationals being BO2, I agree. Either that, or BO4. This whole third round seems pointless, the only reason it was a tie in round 3 was because they outplayed us in round 3. They should've won the clan war.
     
  10. Cruxiat

    Cruxiat Drill Rusher Tester
    1. Gather Oceania
    2. KAG World Cup 2018

    Messages:
    116
    Thank fuck someone finally gets it. BO3 works perfectly for teams playing with the same ping but it really doesn't make sense in a time-centred match. honestly, if you keep it for this preliminary period you should be fine but it has no place in the finals.

    As for the water I don't really see the problem. MIST used a lot of water against us in our match and we still won. It's really not that hard to defend against it since it's reliant on the *one* archer they have on their team, who can miss, die, etc. + the fact that water spams are really only effective when the archer has a team to take out the stunned players, (take out the knights = useless water spam) so if you're going up against a team using water then just consider

    • a) having your archer pick off theirs.
    • b) killing the knights before the water has any effect.
    • c) purchasing sponges for the team push.
    • d) setting up a tunnel to avoid mid altogether.
    • e) buying a cata to shoot yourself over and bypass mid.
    These are just a few ways you can counter water and not be fucked by a team wipe. In future, just use your head instead of getting mad at a game mechanic
     
  11. epsilon

    epsilon Assonist THD Team Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. Gather Oceania
    2. KAG World Cup 2018

    Messages:
    505
    BO4 would go on for too long. Aussies have to play late at night if we're versing eu/us so BO4 would take too long and most people wouldn't be able to stay for the whole match.
     
  12. mcrifel

    mcrifel Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester
    1. MIST

    Messages:
    582
    That Tj fellow used 10x the amount of water malt used and it was cancerous. Main problem with water is that its cheap and too easy too use, archer make it so that you don't need good knights to win because the enemy can't do shit back. Also that stun has a 20 kilometer radius so even bad archers can use it. Water bombs for knights are fine imo they take a little skill and are more expensive but water arrows are just tsunamis,


    also: http://www.strawpoll.me/12242781
     
  13. Darknighte9

    Darknighte9 Drill Rusher Staff Alumni
    1. KAG Competitive League

    Messages:
    89
    @Cruxiat I am confused as to what you want to rules to change to. It seems that you don't want BO3 because it doesn't make sense in a time oriented match but you thought that SURGE's match against MIST should have been decided by a time oriented component. If people want the rules to change to BO2 then it should be made clear whether or not matches will be decided by how quickly a flag was capped vs. just calling a draw. I am personally in favor of just calling it a draw (which I think was what Malt was alluding to in a post a few months ago which I quoted) because I think it's bullshit to determine a match just by how quickly a flag was capped when there are other factors at play during clan wars, which is one reason I thought the ticks past mid system in MLK2 made sense. Again though I'm not sure why people are complaining about the rules now when there was discussion about this a few months ago. For as shitty as some of MLK2's rules were, at least there was a comprehensive list of scenarios to deal with issues that could come up, instead of approaching things by a case-by-case basis which seems to be what MLK3 has turned into. If this is just going to turn into *person complains about rules* ---> *must reconsider rules*, interest in people playing clan wars is going to quickly decline.
     
  14. Cruxiat

    Cruxiat Drill Rusher Tester
    1. Gather Oceania
    2. KAG World Cup 2018

    Messages:
    116
    You missed my point, BO3 makes sense when teams are on equal footing with ping, doesn't make sense when the only way for a team to win is literally cap the flags faster, or try to win against terrible ping, at least for the AUS region. BO2 means we don't have to have one team suffer through ping just to *maybe* get a tie, or most likely lose. The quickness of a flag cap usually correlates to which team is in the lead, but I'd say that this rule could work in conjunction with the ticks past mid to give the fairest possible outcome.


    The speed at which a flag is capped makes sense to me since it usually takes a lot of coordination and teamwork to grab the flag quickly, then get it back as fast as possible.
     
  15. Darknighte9

    Darknighte9 Drill Rusher Staff Alumni
    1. KAG Competitive League

    Messages:
    89
    I get that you view ping as an issue but you specifically noted that in conjunction with clan wars being "time centered", so perhaps I did miss your point due to that added bit of information. I don't think its fair to determine who wins a BO2 but flag cap time on its own. A system based on only flag cap time will only lead to a situation where one clan ends up losing because they capped their flag a couple minutes, or even seconds later, which is very unfair imo when the game is for all intensive purposes a draw. Either revert to MLK2 rules with ticks past mid mod or continue the BO3 model, as shitty as people are now finding it to be.
     
  16. epsilon

    epsilon Assonist THD Team Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. Gather Oceania
    2. KAG World Cup 2018

    Messages:
    505
    This could also occur with ticks passed mid but it would be less likely ofc.
    I don't mind if it goes back to MLK2 rules (ticks past mid) since that still gives both teams an equal shot at winning. :thumbs_up:
     
  17. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

    Messages:
    899
    Water was useless on the AUS match because 1. I was playing literally half a second behind 2. all of my team were playing at least 0.4 seconds behind. Not only could I not hit shit, but they couldn't react either. It's a much different story when the delay is 0.15 seconds or less as with EU and NA matches.

    I'm not getting mad with the mechanic. I love water, it's funny af to use. Unfortunately, a lot of other players do not like it and I'd much rather have people enjoy playing MLK than refusing to do so because of water.

    I changed my mind, I think wins are more fun than draws. It's not like KAG is super competitive, these 'few second' wins are fun and hype in my opinion. Whereas every intercontinental match being a draw would be yawn.

    Also, fuck ticks past mid. Terrible system. I much prefer speed of capping than time rubbing your balls together building a fortress at mid.
     
  18. -Tj-

    -Tj- Sicarii Donator
    1. The Ivory Tower of Grammar-Nazis

    Messages:
    357
    That was the first time I've ever used SO much water and only because of the ping differences in the first round, I mean what else am I supposed to do? Run in as a laggy 400 ping knight and die head on in battle? I'm not gonna give my enemy an easy kill, they gotta earn it.

    I don't particularly like water, either using it or being used against me but I'm not going to stop playing MLK or kag in general because of it. Honestly I'd find that petty if people didn't play because of a mechanic that's in the game.
    I also don't know why people don't just counter the water instead of getting all salty about it, i mean just go and buy a sponge at stick it in your inventory if you want a 0.5 second stun time instead of 1.5.

    With the third round: I think play it on a different server instead of the one you/enemy capped on the quickest.

    For example; If MIST v TOXIC played the third round on lets say a US server instead of AUS or EU. Both teams would be at a advantage/disadvantage of ping, not one team being 33-66 and the other being in the 400+
     
  19. Cruxiat

    Cruxiat Drill Rusher Tester
    1. Gather Oceania
    2. KAG World Cup 2018

    Messages:
    116
    As has been said before, Wins are far better for everyone. none of this .5 points crap that just needlessly complicates the tourney. are we going to have the grand final be a draw? I just want to see wins / losses that clearly show which team is better (or which one can play best with ping, which is usually the case)

    @Darknighte9 if one clan caps the flag faster than the other, how is it not better? I'm just going to go through your response to try and work this out.

    I don't think its fair to determine who wins a BO2 by flag cap time on its own. A system based on only flag cap time will only lead to a situation where one clan ends up losing because they capped their flag a couple minutes, or even seconds later, which is very unfair imo when the game is for all intensive purposes a draw.

    If a clan loses because they capped the flag later, it means that the other team's defense was better. they managed to hold the other clan off longer than it took for the other clan to win. They are better.

    For someone who doesn't like split-second wins as you put it in your other response, you have to realise that if one team can mount an effective push and beat the other team faster, they are quite literally better.

    when you say that it's for all intents and purposes a draw, you're just thinking about it in a static, ping normative game where both teams are on equal footing. in a match where it's almost guarenteed that the team with the ping advantage would win, it's ridiculous to play high-ping matches in the same way in which we play with equal ping. we need to adapt the game in a way that ensures an equal battleground for both teams. there is literally no fairer way to play against an international team.

    I don't know if you're resisting because of your recent game against MIST but really it's the fairest format for everyone
     
  20. Potatobird

    Potatobird Bison Rider Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    775
    Time spent capping the flag doesn't seem to me like a terrible way to decide BO2 , but I can see where he's coming from. KAG isn't necessarily as simplistic as one team pushing against the other better. For example, is a team that prefers to take their time to set up and defend a big tower to ensure victory "worse" than a team that prefers to take risks in the hopes of ending it quickly? What should the objective be, to capture the flags, or to capture the flags as fast as possible? Both are valid, and would probably lead to fun competitive games, but the style of games and effective strategies for winning might be different depending on what the actual objective is. There are benefits and drawbacks to different competitive objectives and one may well be more fun than another.

    Bo2 with faster caps for tiebreaking seems fine to me, because draws are kind of unsatisfying, and it evens out the ping thing. But I'm not really that involved with comp tbh