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MLK s3 Discussion

Discussion in 'Competitive KAG Archive' started by mcrifel, Nov 3, 2016.

  1. Darknighte9

    Darknighte9 Drill Rusher Staff Alumni
    1. KAG Competitive League

    Messages:
    89
    Quoted above is the answer to your question about the grand final. I actually asked about this several months ago because I was concerned about how ties would work if they happened. Furthermore I think there are more factors than a team's "defense" in a clan war such as maps, but I digress. What I do think however is that it is becoming clear now that the rules for MLK3 weren't really all that well thought through and were instead thrown together fairly quickly. I'm sure if people start to find issues with other rules now, those rules will also be up for discussion. It's getting to a point where discussing rule changes now completely takes away from the fun of actually playing clan wars and honestly leaves little reason to continue planning clan wars for the sake of MLK3.
     
  2. epsilon

    epsilon Assonist THD Team Forum Moderator Tester Donator
    1. Gather Oceania
    2. KAG World Cup 2018

    Messages:
    505
    Clan wars and competitive matches aren't about spending time making a good base. The whole point of CTF is to cap the flag(s), not taking your time and spending the entirety of the match designing a well-fortified base. I don't even know how you would even have the time to make a good base in a competitive match when the enemy team would rush and overwhelm you.
    Of course not. Most of us are having a good ol' time playing in MLK but some of the fun is lost when the enemy gives up 3rd round since it is favoured to your team.
    Now that I think of it this is basically your point :/
     
  3. Darknighte9

    Darknighte9 Drill Rusher Staff Alumni
    1. KAG Competitive League

    Messages:
    89
    True. However in our recent match with MIST, our clan being a majority US clan played our third match on EU and was still able to force a tie. I definitely see what you're saying though.
     
  4. epsilon

    epsilon Assonist THD Team Forum Moderator Tester Donator
    1. Gather Oceania
    2. KAG World Cup 2018

    Messages:
    505
    Yes, exactly. In TOXIC's match against CLUCK we won first round on the North American server by capping both of their flags. It's definitely possible for teams to tie/win games when the favour is against them but it's still would be better if we remove round 3 on intercontinental matches to stop disagreements regarding unfairness. ::):
     
  5. Okay, so you and @Cruxiat want the more skilled team to win, so your solution is to cut off the third round. Why exactly does this prove more skill, if anything, I think it diminishes the amount of skill needed to win.

    The way a BO2 is setup (and believe me because I've played through that shit) Causes a lot of draws so you add the timer which is what you're suggesting to break those times and crown a winner. The problem with this is that teams are going to play even more obnoxiously than they already do, because all they have to do is delay as long as they can and they win (if they won the prior match). This is a really stale way to play the game.

    Now I've read this thread for a little while and what I've picked up on is that you guys don't like the third round because it's a waste of time. The majority of the people I see arguing this are AUS, you guys need to stop thinking in an egocentric fashion, just because the third map results with either 233 or 33 ping doesn't mean it's like that for all of us. On EU-US it's a different matter because either side can still have a fighting chance if strategized correctly and I believe this is true even for US-AUS or EU-AUS. The fact that MIST gave up on the third round to Toxic was their choice alone. Not all clans will submit themselves in such a way.

    The BO3 System as it stands is decent, it could use some tuning. If you truly despise draws then we can set something up to break the tie like a sudden death, or even tickets or lives as some of you newbies may recognize.

    In brief, a BO2 System will make play more stale and defensive which isn't entertaining to anyone IMO. If you want to change the rules come up with something interesting, not an old system that clearly failed in the past.
     
  6. Cruxiat

    Cruxiat Drill Rusher Tester
    1. Gather Oceania
    2. KAG World Cup 2018

    Messages:
    115
    First of all, this is not coming from an ego-centric viewpoint. this situation of a draw hasn't come up for toxic, we're talking about matches that you and MIST have played. We literally have nothing to gain from arguing this except hate from you guys lol

    The innate nature of playing on ping ensures that one team will always have the advantage when playing internationally. You can't avoid this. But what we can do is provide a level playing field for everyone IE: a gamemode where teams take turns in playing with equally bad ping and equally good ping. What is the purpose of providing an advantage to a team in the last round? I'm sure teams have been able to tie and even win in some occaisions but that doesn't excuse the fact that it's an innately unequal playing field.

    The majority of US and EU clans that we've fought have all agreed it's completely unnecessary, since if one clan caps in 10 minutes and the other caps in 5 how likely do you think it is for a surprise comeback on ping that favours the winner?

    Look, it makes perfect sense to defend a system that turned your potential loss into a draw, but for the vast majority of people (not just AUS) we've all acknowledged it's a weird addition. Do I literally need to make a petition to convince you all? lmao

    you make the point that BO2 is stale. If we have a time-oriented game, this would quite literally inspire teams to try and get kills, do high - risk strats and the like because there's a sense of urgency in the game. There is no urgency in the matches right now. once the team wins fastest on their ping, they can take their time in winning and the other team just has to build a cancer base. That's it. The time limit encourages reckless plays and is far more interesting than watching two clans fortify for as long as they can. (aka: MIST v SURGE)

    You also talk about fighting chances: if you have one, why do you need the third round? The only chance you'd need is to show you can A) cap the flags on US ping or B) cap the flags / defend on EU. The fact you couldn't against MIST means that they're the better team. It means that you spent the last match fortifying for as long as you could not to lose, and you got a draw. extremely boring. In your response you condemn teams who play like this, and you literally just did it in your match!

    MIST managed to beat you in a smaller amount of time. This makes them better. You say "this doesn't show skill" but it shows they clearly know how to beat you in a shorter time frame.

    In all likelyhood this won't change anything, you couldn't give two shits about our community as of right now so I don't expect jack shit but just realise that the rules as of now are flawed and need to change.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2017
  7. Darknighte9

    Darknighte9 Drill Rusher Staff Alumni
    1. KAG Competitive League

    Messages:
    89
    I'm not really sure why you keep bring up our recent clan war to try and discount Dual's points. You act as if we're offended of the idea that we might actually think MIST is a good clan (which they are) that could have very well beat us. Furthermore I'm not really even sure you watched the match because a good deal of the first and third matches consisted of both clans fighting at mid (which is the exact opposite of what you suggested --> both teams sitting back and fortifying). What I'm really not so sure about is why you're pushing for a rule change now when several clan wars have already been played and things were running just fine. MIST and SURGE played a match under the rules determined three months ago, and confirmed the results. Both teams were credited half of a point which was another aspect outlined in the rules three months ago. Just because you and your clan were playing under a different set of rules should not mean that every other clan participating must now follow suit.
     
  8. Cruxiat

    Cruxiat Drill Rusher Tester
    1. Gather Oceania
    2. KAG World Cup 2018

    Messages:
    115
    I addressed his points in what I said, you're just taking what I said about the match as me trying to offend you, I'm not, it's just an example. I haven't said anything about trying to change the rules to what I want, I just want something that's fair for everyone. It's not fair you were forced to play another match where they have the advantage. If someone suggests a better ruleset, I'll gladly play by them but since you decided to attack me not the argument I just wrote, I'll post the main points so you can easily understand.

    I'm not saying that the rules here you're playing are wrong, I'm saying that a large portion of the community, (EU+US as well as AUS) already play this way and it's widely accepted (heck, MIST played by this rule when they fought us, they didn't complain then)

    • BO3 encourages teams to play defensively if they lose via time, so to obtain a draw they'll make a cancer base to last as long as possible
    • BO2 ruled by time encourages teams to play fast and win as quickly as possible, as opposed to having the luxury of playing slowly and stalling for time.
    • A team winning faster means they're a better team. period. no matter by how small a margain
    • If a better ruleset emerges, of course I'd play it, but most people are agreeing that there needs to be a change of some sort.

    TOXIC will still be playing if the ruleset doesn't change, this is the discussion thread for the rules. no hostility from me, this is my first MLK and ofc you're all vastly more experienced, just giving my input as to what we all feel would help the tourney the most.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2017
  9. mcrifel

    mcrifel Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester
    1. MIST

    Messages:
    582
    Bo3 is a bit odd for eu vs aus I agree with that but I do not think that Bo2 with time being the deciding factor is the way to go either, there are many strategies to do in clan wars but the time would render a bunch of them useless as they take a long time to excecute. Even with what we have now I don't like the time idea in bo3 all too much and I am up for that being changed but it makes it a bit better that there is in fact a third round where time does not matter where you can use these strategies.

    About water I think raising the cost or making it stun your team mates as wel is a good way to reduce the amount of water spam without completely removing it. We could also change sponge costs for before the update comes out.
     
  10. Psiklaw

    Psiklaw Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    179
    do you guys think BO7 would suffice?
     
  11. Cruxiat

    Cruxiat Drill Rusher Tester
    1. Gather Oceania
    2. KAG World Cup 2018

    Messages:
    115
    Water is a game mechanic though. It hasn't been changed for MLK1 or 2 as far as I'm aware. There are multiple ways to combat water, and I don't think we should remove a game mechanic from competitive play so quickly. It's like flashbangs in CS, you just need to work around it
     
  12. neil58

    neil58 Drill Rusher Staff Alumni
    1. Zen - [Zen] - (Invite Only)

    Messages:
    99
    tdlr; nerf or ban water because it's literally the worst thing ever
    Re water: Wouldn't it be simpler to raise the price? This promotes a more efficient use of water arrows versus mindless spamming. Water, when used correctly, is basically impossible to counter.
    Retorts:
    a) The problem is that most archers hide behind platforms while spamming arrows. Because of this, it's impossible to counter due to the defensive nature of the archer. If you try to scale the wall you're generally screwed.
    b) Not sure what this point is, as long as the archer is decent he'll spam you at the first moment he gets.
    c) Actually viable but fairly expensive
    d) Do we just tunnel then?
    e) Water spam can still be used. For example a knight and archer can stand over where the knights land when the cata is fired. Archer spams water and knight
     
  13. Cruxiat

    Cruxiat Drill Rusher Tester
    1. Gather Oceania
    2. KAG World Cup 2018

    Messages:
    115
    Actually those are fair points. I think raising to 30 isn't a bad idea, puts the archer and knight water at the same price level. It's not too expensive yet it discourages buying a fuckton to spam.
     
  14. RampageX

    RampageX Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    195
    As for the water when you buy water arrows, you should only get 1. Not 2. Water is aids and I still don't understand why anything hasn't been done to it over the off season after MLK 2.
    >Go buy a sponge

    Are you on crack? If so, hand some over. The sponge is worth more than the fucking water... why would I buy a sponge when I rather buy my archer more water? Also, if you die and lose the sponge we gotta go make another? Nah, the only way I'll keep a sponge is if they change it back to only wood.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2017
  15. A few points here:
    1. I don't understand why you keep trying to make this a personal attack on SURGE. It's just a game and we respect everyone, it's not about who's the better team, it's about having fun, You keep accusing us of trying to change the rules because we're "salty" which is the complete opposite, we want to have fun.

    2. You are thinking in an egocentric fashion because the only reason you're trying to change the rule is because you've asked every clan you've played against and not everyone in general. I can see how it can be pointless for you guys but you have to understand it's not the same for every clan. The fact of the matter is that you've already contradicted yourself by saying a BO2 is more skill based because it's based off flag caps. The problem with this is that it promotes a way of play that is horrific in the idea that people will only sit in their base and try to delay. The system is already like this in a way, but the way you want to drive it will make matters worse. it promotes fast play for only one side, the other side will play mega defensive, in a BO3 both teams will want to fight for the win (this setup is better but the problem is that teams will still play defensively so it needs a change, but not anything near a BO2)

    If you think about it, the system is already set up in the way you're recommending, the only difference is that the timer determines the third map instead of the winner. Just because it's a different continoent match doesn't mean it's over, you need to consider that ping isn't as drastic of a change as it is for EU-AUS or US-AUS. Matches are always going to be much closer on the third map for EU-US because they still have a strong chance, an example of this was the SURGE MIST clan war that you love to talk about, The third round wasn't even posted so I don't know how you can judge who should have won or not. We came out and took midcontrol and held it down, we had more shots at their flag than ours. We were put at a disadvantage and we put up a good chance to win. The BO3 system is flawed but it provides more depth to find the better clan, it's happened in the past and not just with this game with SURGE and Mist, don't believe me? Go watch other clan wars and see what happened. The idea you want is dis functional, it's been tested before.

    -I typed this on my phone so sorry for any grammar issues-

    Please, if you're going to flame or slander me like your last post, please atleast provide some valid evidence. (Please don't make a flame war, its not needed, keep it civil)
     
  16. Cruxiat

    Cruxiat Drill Rusher Tester
    1. Gather Oceania
    2. KAG World Cup 2018

    Messages:
    115
    So I really don't know why you're taking so much offence to me literally just citing your match as an example. I have no hate towards your clan at all, and no, I'm not trying to flame anyone. I'm just discussing the rules as that's the literal purpose of the thread. I was only quoting your match as, again, it's an example of a draw that just happened. I love how the immediate response to me questioning the rules is: "stop attacking me and my clan" because I really have no ill will towards literally anyone in the thread, maybe the way I'm wording this is too aggresive? idfk. i just want to talk about the rules, that's all

    The main problem I had with the third match is that it's almost a given that the team who wins via time usually wins via the third match, so I suggested scrapping it to expedite the process. unfortunately you guys seem to have already gotten used to this and ofc you don't want to change, that's fine

    the overall message I want you to take away is that I'm not speaking for all people, I'm speaking for the people that I know feel the same way; IE: the majority of AUS players. I'm just giving input. I'm not suggesting that this is the only way we have to do it, or the right way, I quite literally just want to give our input so that we can have an informed discussion about the tournament and it's rules.

    I'm not here to start shit and I have mad respect for all clans involved, I just think it's ridiculous how heated this has gotten over a simple discussion of a match format. No one wants drama, so in future let's not jump to the conclusion I'm a shitposting fuckwit trying to insult you all.

    I'm just voicing concerns that the AUS community has for the tourney, since no one else seems to give a fuck. it's depressing that this means "lets mob this dude and tell him how wrong he is, how dare he try have a reasonable discussion in here" Because I'm fine with you disagreeing with me, but I'll blow my dad dry before you turn this into a petty 'my clan v your clan' bullshit.
     
  17. mcrifel

    mcrifel Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester
    1. MIST

    Messages:
    582
  18. It's getting repetitive, if there is something you want to discuss private message me, we've both stated our opinions, no need to get defensive, let's just not butt heads.

    Please make sure to vote on the straw poll for what you all want, me and @Cruxiat have clearly displayed the pros and cons of each, sorry if I upset you, just trying to get the perks of each situation to be visible.
     
  19. A_Jax

    A_Jax Ballista Bolt Thrower Staff Alumni

    Messages:
    13
    For the Bo2 / Bo3 rules, I don't know if anything as change or if you plan to discuss on this after the water thing but ... I think bo3 is better since idc about winning or lossing ( or even making a draw like against mist c: ) of course I still prefer winning because it's cool :B): but we already did discuss on the rules some month ago and I thought we did agree on this thing + some cw has already took place with those rules.

    Also, as childly as it can looks; I actually prefer play 3 rounds instead of 2 because i personnaly play that game for fun .. so the more we play the more i'm having fun; i know that the ping difference can be horrible ( especially on aus - eu ) because i sometimes train on aus servers to get use to the ping problem, but if it's like round 1 win for eu - round to win for aus and round 3 will be play on aus, i still prefer to play it than to just stop there and check who won faster .. maybe it's just my point of view but it's even more funny to play this round because of the stress to know that you can win / loose on this round; because it's exciting to play the match point in sport or games...
    For the thing that most of you agreed on, that the faster that win their match win the whole match; i still thinks it's better to play the last match because nothing has been decided + you'll possibly show more skill plays c: .

    I don't know if it was very clear or something ( also excuse me for my english i'm still learning it c: ).
    I've started playing KAG to have fun, i started competitive match on classic to have fun ... even if i was in the tryhard clan that was AG; and i believe lots of players think the same way ( maybe i'm wrong too ).. to end this message ... just see you in game and Have Fun :D
     
  20. -Tj-

    -Tj- Sicarii Donator
    1. The Ivory Tower of Grammar-Nazis

    Messages:
    357
    I don't want to turn this into "Your clan vs my clan" bullshit but I'd like to point out the less then obvious fact that this debate about water has only occurred after the fact MIST got beaten by TOXIC, and before anyone replies and says "Water has been a topic for ages" yes i know this but it hasn't been taken this seriously before. You all want to either remove it, or change it because you're unhappy about water being a mechanic in the game or the tournament. Would you do the same thing to a different mechanic because you didn't like it, or maybe you were salty for losing because of it? "I was killed by ballista in game today, lets remove it because im a salty cunt"

    Grow the fuck up guys and deal with it, work around archers sitting behind towers and platforms using water arrows or knights using water bombs on you for an easier kill. I used water in the first round of MIST v TOXIC because of the ping difference to slow them down, it's called a "Strategy" for a reason. No one is just going to run at the enemy team so stupidly, I mean would you run at the enemies giant tower just to end up repetitively dying? Because i sure as fuck wouldn't.

    All this discussion about the third round and water spam is a complete waste of time, the only reason this is coming up is because everyone puts shit down onto the AUS community for apparently being shit and being 2 years behind the meta? WHAT META!? The meta of US and EU acting like a bunch of third grade kids whining over not playing with the toy dumptruck because it's someone elses turn.

    If this was true, why start this big bitch in the first place? How is ranting on the forums about having a third round OR water spam be fun for you? The only other reason is "Salt" IMO because of the fact this amount of bitching has only occurred after an AUS team beat an Eu team. I mean what else am i or alot of others supposed to think, if this was tested 3 months ago then why only now are we hearing about the hatred to water spam now?

    I don't see why a vote has been made about water considering the only concern about it is that people are getting salty for it being used and like come on, MIST used alot of water with their match up against ETID and i didn't see anyone complaining about the water in that but only now, as an AUS team beats an Eu team with the same exact strat and everyone puts their 2 cents in? What else am i supposed to think other then AUS being put down (Yet again) by another country because people ARE in fact salty.

    Doing anything about the water isn't a change in rules, it's just simply petty because people don't seem to grasp the fact that it can be worked around. Same thing with the third round, you can change it after this MLK season is over for all anyone cares, but don't change it during just because it didn't work out the way you want it to.

    Why can't we all just get along and have fun instead of having a good ol bitch because one clan beat another, putting another country down in the process, the third round didn't work out the way you wanted it to, or because it would be so much easier to remove water instead because no one seems to use their fucking brain to find a way to work around the water.

    I want to be in the tournament to play against other competitive clans and have fun instead of having to see and deal with constant conversations about people bickering and bitching, quite sick of it honestly.
    No one should be saying 'We don't put down the AUS community" Because that's a load of bullshit and everybody from ALL communities knows this to be true.
    My ranting is over, because I don't want to hear about this silly shit again. Im voting to leave water the way it is because quite frankly, there is nothing wrong with water or their mechanics in the game.
    Good Day Ya'll.