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Nerf Platforms

Discussion in 'Balance' started by bunnie, Sep 1, 2017.

?

Thoughts?

  1. Needs to be nerfed

    35.5%
  2. Should stay like it is now

    45.2%
  3. Unsure

    19.4%
  1. bunnie

    bunnie Haxor

    Messages:
    1,183
    I talked about this with @AsuMagic on discord a few weeks ago and just decided to make a thread: platforms are too OP.

    First of all, let's compare how much it takes to destroy a platform to other things.

    Wooden Platform:
    Bombs - 3
    Builder Hits - 9
    Slashes - 18; Double Slashes - 9

    Wooden Door:
    Bombs - 1 bomb + 4 slashes or two bombs
    Builder Hits - 4
    Slashes - 14; Double Slashes - 7

    Stone Block:
    Bombs - 1
    Builder Hits - 7
    Slashes - :huh?:???

    Wood Block:
    Bombs - 1
    Builder Hits - 5
    Slashes - 5

    As you can see, platforms not only take 2x less materials than Wooden Door (door - 30, platform - 15), but they also require over 2x more builder hits to destroy them!

    Not only that, but you can make them resistant to fire by putting stone background over them. In tunnels, it doesn't even matter; you can successfully block tunnels for the enemies by putting shitton of platforms, no matter if with stone background or not. It's very inconvenient to burn it as an archer, as in a tunnel a builder would most likely instantly put stone background over them or block you.

    Also, knights can destroy them much easily than builder (they can destroy a few at once) which just shouldn't happen.

    My suggestion is to nerf them in some way, for example:
    - make bombs destroy them instantly
    - make it take less builder hits to be destroyed, for example 5 instead of 9, or heck, even 4 - like the doors.
    - increase their cost - from 15 to 2o, 25 or 30 (door cost)
    - the worst alternative: make them flammable no matter what background (still incovenient to go burn them as archer in tunnels...)
    TL;DR:

    Platforms>everything else, both in material cost and hits to destroy; they're annoying and blocks tunnel too ez. Pls nerf

    :bridge::bridge::bridge::bridge::bridge::bridge:
     
    LeWhisp, Blue_Tiger, Biurza and 5 others like this.
  2. Asu

    Asu THD Team THD Team Forum Moderator

    Messages:
    1,549
    There's more to it:
    • These don't decay underwater, while doors do.
    • These yield 4 coins like wooden doors, but they cost the half. With one wood resupply you can build 6 of them, which yields 24 coins. So, if you have a tree farm, it is pretty trivial to farm coins to buy 5 or 10 bombarrows...
    • These don't yield wood when you break them - though that might be unintended.
    • One bomb was dropped here:
      [​IMG]
      These behave inconsistently with bombs and bombarrows, especially reverse platforms, though that's a pretty much known bug. They can make quite a few bombs and bombarrows go to waste.
    • This in tunnels:
      [​IMG]
      Builder pickaxe aiming behaves very badly with blobs. In this case you have to break the two front platforms before being able to break the stone blocks.
      Of course, it also messes very badly with builder combat. Unfortunately I've already seen this get abused, and you can imagine a simple pattern to abuse them badly.
      Edit: And it actually would work pretty well when oriented to the enemy as well, so you can use that pattern without that glitch, because knights can slash through layers of platforms.
      [​IMG]
      In a tunnel, this would take at least 30 seconds (measured) to break, with 30 stone + 90 wood (= one builder resupply).
    A builder can build a resupply's worth of them in just a few seconds, and it will take at least 20 seconds (measured) for a builder to break them. Since tree farms makes wood pretty cheap, you can block a tunnel in less than half a minute, and it will take a few minutes for the enemy to cross it again... So these are quite OP in tunnels, and you can still cross it one side without any danger...

    Also:
    [​IMG]
    Such pillars can be taken down with one bomb, because the backwall for the platform will break, and other platforms will lose support.
    This is a known bug, though, and it might require some effort to be fixed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
    Blue_Tiger, Biurza, Fuzzle and 3 others like this.
  3. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Forum Moderator Tester

    Messages:
    1,213
    A Nerf would ruin the kag builder metagame.
     
    SirDangalang likes this.
  4. Vermilicious

    Vermilicious Base Burner

    Messages:
    225
    I think platforms needs some adjustments at the very least. They are too strong compared to their cost.

    As for builder hitting and hitting order, it's a mess in general, and something I've complained about before. A fix is long overdue.
     
  5. The_Osz

    The_Osz Arsonist

    Messages:
    16
    :castle_bg:Defensive buildings: Platforms are necessary blocks you need for a regular base / tower. The platforms are mostly used for 2 things: additional exits of the building or a better wall-defense against bombs and drills. Nerfing platforms too hard would make these additional exits in a building easily (too easy imo) accesable for enemies, specially for knights. Also builders could just drill through 10 layers of a wall to get the flag, assuming that platforms will take 4/5 hits to destroy (maybe the builder has to hit platforms in the wall 2 times with his pickaxe first, but it would be still way too fast).

    :builder:Ratting: As bunnie said, builders can easily block tunnels by placing a ton of platforms, but I think that's actually a good thing. Ratting needs to be punished somehow, nerfing platforms too hard will definitely encourage rats to stay underground. The only thing that can stop rats without placing platforms are stone blocks, but if the rat brought a drill then it still wouldn't work.

    :camping:Fire resistance: I don't think there needs to be a change involving the fireresistance of platforms when it has a stone backwall. One fire arrow can destroy 2 platforms if hit correctly (if you hit a platform with a stone backwall with a fire arrow, then the platform under it will burn too (correct me if I'm wrong)), which is big enough for enemies to pass. Also if you are placing platforms in a tunnel to stop a rat, then most of the time you didn't have enough time to place a stone backwall on each of the platforms, which means 1 fire arrow and it's gone :anger:.

    Conclusion: Platforms are pretty strong, but why is that a bad thing? Okay, I know it's pretty annoying when your door gets blocked with 4 platforms, but platforms can't get nerfed that hard when they are being used for so many different things. Don't get me wrong, I do think platforms are overpowered, but not as op as people think they are. Now I haven't even talked about spike/water traps (cuz they suck lol pls don't build), but (newer) people love to make those. If platforms take 4/5 hits to destroy, then full hp knights can basically escape any trap. BTW Asu + Bunnie, thanks for comparing platforms to wooden doors, cause wooden doors seems to be a problem too. 30 Wood for a door which takes 4 hits to destroy is just thrash. If platforms would get nerfed, then something has to replace the platforms in order to maintain good defenses and stop rats.

    My suggestion:
    • :bridge:Platform cost increase with 5/10 wood + takes 7 hits to destroy
    • :door:Wooden doors cost decrease with 5 wood + takes 5 hits to destroy
     
    SirDangalang and Magmus like this.
  6. Asu

    Asu THD Team THD Team Forum Moderator

    Messages:
    1,549
    You're only saying that stone blocks are weak against drills, not that platforms are properly balanced.

    If rats should be "punished" just put bedrock underground so they don't try, instead of getting the fun ruined by one builder that slows them down by a few minutes instantly... If ratting makes the flag easy to cap then the map you are playing on is most likely poorly designed.

    Archers are the absolute worst class to go in a tunnel. You can be practically sure none of them will bother doing that. And if you separate platforms by one block the fire will not spread. Once you put 1 layer of platforms as a builder you have enough time to complete it the way you want, e.g. with the pattern i've shown above or with stone backwalls anyway.

    4 hits as a builder... Which seems fine enough to me. On the other hand, having a simple block that can block a whole tunnel in less than a minute, dug in a few minutes by a rat is really annoying and frustrating. I lost count of the times i quit the game because of troll builders either ruining a tunnel with them or, even worse, repair the flag base instantly with platforms that will keep them away for way too much time...
     
    bunnie likes this.
  7. The_Osz

    The_Osz Arsonist

    Messages:
    16
    Asu did you actually read the post lol

    I'm not defending platforms in any way, I want them to be nerfed too lol. What you guys aren't realising is that nerfing platforms to 4/5 hits will bring it's consequences. Buildings will be so much weaker since it mostly contains a lot of platforms to stop drills/bombs.

    Yes, please nerf platforms, but there still has to mantain a balance so that buildings / towers won't be ruined. That's why I suggested to give a solid nerf to platforms, but slightly buff wooden doors.

    PS:
    For Asu: The 'drill' thing I was talking about: If platforms get nerfed so hard that stone blocks are better than platforms, then people won't use them anymore in walls, which means drilling will be 10 times easier. If people still use platforms then the walls would still be weak, thats all. I don't really understand why you think that part should explain why platforms are properly balanced.
     
    Magmus likes this.
  8. erik102003

    erik102003 Shopkeep Stealer Tester

    Messages:
    120
    I honestly dont see the point

    its like this game will get any changes lol
     
  9. bunnie

    bunnie Haxor

    Messages:
    1,183
    you are defending platforms, and nerfing platforms to 4/5 hits was only my small suggestion - the main idea here is to nerf platforms in some way
     
    Asu likes this.
  10. JackMcDaniels

    JackMcDaniels Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    189
    No changes whatsoever should be made to platforms, they are an essential support block for both holding back the tide of enemy knights and helping your own knights push forward which helps break stalemates.

    Lets not make the center of every map an eternal knight meat grinder by nerfing important blocks that helps teams push forward when used correctly.

    The best way to deal with a tunnel full of platforms is to either burn them if they're all next to each other, counter by placing platforms facing in the opposite direction to block it off or simply dig around them.
     
  11. Potatobird

    Potatobird Ballista Bolt Thrower Official Server Admin Tester

    Messages:
    757
    Man, you guys are thinking about this really weird. Why do the blocks need to be "balanced" relative to each other? Is it not fair to our friend the wooden door if platforms are both tougher and cheaper than it? What, is the door gonna feel bad? You have to think about building as a singular tool. It's not like doors are redundant and never used, because they're doors. You can go through them.

    Is there some reason builders shouldn't be able to use them to counter tunnels? That they shouldn't be able to make a bomb resistant structure? I don't think so.

    I'm pretty heavily against changing the platforms. Their multitude of uses is part of what makes building interesting.
     
    Blue_Tiger, norill, Ej and 1 other person like this.
  12. Darruin

    Darruin Shopkeep Stealer Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    17
    If you do nerf platforms then it's just gonna make ratting more viable as there's no easy way to block their tunnels to force them above ground. At the same time, it's super cheap that a builder can spam plats up a wall basically building a stronger ladder (until he dies, then repeats) and the defensive players have no way of fixing their wall quickly. If it HAD to be changed I would say make knights slightly stronger against them, but that's all.
     
    Blue_Tiger, PUNK123 and Solaris like this.
  13. EhRa

    EhRa Ooooooof Official Server Admin Donator
    1. KRPG

    Messages:
    787
    You can't really compare doors to platforms.
    Doors allow people both ways, therefore cost more, while a platform only allows one way movements. Platforms are an integral part of building, changing them too much will destroy the types of buildings you rely on to defend your flags.

    Why not nerf stone blocks, knights can't break it easily enough!!!
     
  14. Asu

    Asu THD Team THD Team Forum Moderator

    Messages:
    1,549
    Yes, because
     
    Fuzzle likes this.
  15. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler Staff Alumni

    Messages:
    274
    Because it's counterintuitive to not have at least some consistency between blocks, and price vs. durability. Newcomers will not think "hey, platforms sound like the most durable block" - the opposite is more likely. Who would think a 50 stone door is less durable than a 15 wood platform? It takes double the hits of any other block. It's not solely about a platform nerf: Other blocks could be buffed a bit too. Sidenote: The poll won't show us what newcomers think should be done.

    That said: I love the creativity in this thread. "Nothing whatsoever should be done", k. It's not like platforms will only see modifications that can be seen as nerfs. Platforms will see a lot of modifications as they're the most broken block of them all. Especially in regards to explosions / attacks / pickup (raycasting).
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
    bunnie and Asu like this.
  16. What newcomers? There's at most 40 people playing the game at a time. And I guarantee you that the overwhelming majority don't really care if it takes 5 or 4 hammer hits to destroy a block.
    People want to walk forward and smash shit, blow shit up. Most of the suggestion subforum is just singular players lashing out at their pet peeves.
     
    kodysch likes this.
  17. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler Staff Alumni

    Messages:
    274
    Never seen a more ignorant comment than this. If you don't care, feel free to leave.
    Sidenote: There are lots of newcomers (5000 copies sold Aug. 19).
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
    bunnie likes this.
  18. Right. The reason people don't find KAG enjoyable is because it takes too many hits to destroy a platform.
     
  19. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler Staff Alumni

    Messages:
    274
    It's all part of an overall experience? Did I really have to tell you that?
     
  20. platforms are the only foolproof counter to ratting and they are a very important block, so extreme care must be taken when rebalancing them.

    there are 2 things broken about plats that make them OP: they dont properly take damage from explosives and from fire. just fixing those 2 might nerf them enough.