New build discussion

rofl true words^^ builder isnt a figherclass, theres nothing against to set thems hp on 1 heart :)

builders already do like no dmg.

or the better idea.... holding builders on 2 hearts (accidently steping in 1 of 30 spikes happens sometimes in a trap ur building) so they should just get like x2 dmg, means everyone can 1hit them anyway, and they wouldnt die instantly on a spike...^^

good?

 

So you guys are kinda forgetting that it's impossible to win without at least one builder on the front lines which means giving them 1 heart would be a terrible idea.

As would making it so everything instantly KOs it.

 

I think with the new sword mechanics builders would have even less of a chance of killing a knight. I have no problems with workers having a small chance at finishing off knights.

 

+1, sans large pic.

Master Server down?

 

If there's one thing I've noticed issue-wise in KAG... it's the fact that successful hits don't always do damage...

I don't know if anyone else has come across this, but I've been in a battle before with a Knight in which I sat there stabbing another Knight about 8 times before he finally died. Seeing as how each stab does 1 heart of damage, I don't know how that's possible.

I've also been hit with an arrow by an archer and taken no damage at all, so this goes both ways.

In general, hitting your opponents doesn't seem to function properly all the time...

 

I've experienced this many times. I always blamed it on lag.

 

me aswell, the hitbox of moving enemys is always misplaced in the directory he walks, how to fix? pre-hit based on ur ping and experience, still involves skill and timing, but indeed it could need some fixes. i notice those lags even with a 33 ping on EU servers...

 

Was this master server downtime scheduled? Or is it an error?

 

I'm liking this build quite a lot. I've played for several hours, and I think I'm ready to give some input and respond to the (numerous) discussions put forward here.

-I think the archer's charging niche is perfectly fine, A decent-skilled archer should be able to pull it off pretty easily. Having the niche means that archers don't just sit on top of a structure 'hard scoping' enemies.

-Arrow ladders are great, they work well, enable archers to actually be useful at besieging, and aren't overpowered because of their difficulty to set up (which also isn't too high (which means a good builder can easily counter arrow climbing on their base)). My only problem with arrow ladders is that arrows don't last long enough before disappearing. I wouldn't complain if the wall I was trying to climb was freaking massive and shouldn't be attempted to climb, what I have problems with is trying to climb a semi difficult wall. I can set up my arrows (using only 10-15 arrows) but I can't always hop right over and use them, because my window of opportunity could be blocked by a knight or archer etc. I'm guessing this is done for performance's sake, but I would be happy if arrow life was increased by as little as 15-30 seconds.

-I don't think archers are either under or overpowered at the moment. People complain about killing people a long ways away being difficult to due the new charging system, and that insta kills should be brought back. I've had little trouble taking down enemies far away. As a lone archer trying to kill an approaching knight(s) it can be difficult. I don't really have a problem with this, because; have another knight on the field or friendly archer to help you easily counters this. You can stun an enemy knight, whilst your ally puts in some jabs or kills him, which is extremely effective. This same tactic works with a friendly archer(s); either archer alternates their fire, one stunning, the other finishing off knights.
1 archer = as deadly is his skill level, as it should be
2 archers = as deadly as their combined skill level, and co-operation.
3+ archers (archer wall) = Brilliant tactic which will stop any attackers, but can still be countered by opposing archers (not to mention it's extremely satisfying to see a flurry of arrows like that (and it makes getting kills easier).

-I think the only thing that should be buffed about an archer (or rather, detracted from a knight) by himself should be changed shielding hitboxes on the knights. If a knight has their shield facing forward, and as an archer you have high-ish ground, even when you get a nice arrow that should have hit their head, it still seems to hit the shield. changing the shielding hitboxes should promote knights to be more clever with their shielding, instead of rushing: shielding only when they see an archer charging.

-I like that archers aren't so effective at close range, and would be better off trying to craftily escape a knight's grasp than taking one on. I've always believed that archers are a long range class, and should be mostly incapable of close range attack.

-As for the madmen knights, I like the idea of enemy knights bumping into one another (but this defeats the purpose of using the shield in close quarters), but I like the idea of enemy knights slowing down when walking past one another more. Although I do see knights doing this a lot, it makes a helluva lot of easy targets for an archer(s), it's like a pool of unshielding knights! You don't even have to pick a target and aim properly.

-Knight charging needs to be buffed a bit more. I seldom see knights pulling off the full-charge stun-hit, because of the window of opportunity. I think that once knights have a full charge, it is held until they release their hit.

-Another solution to knight charging madness; allow them to hit normally (no charging or a little charging (but no stun effect at max charge)), but they also have a secondary attack, which will stun an enemy (no charge req), but takes 10 seconds to regenerate before it can be used again. Or, another way of doing it is have a different kind of charging; the special attack can be used at any time, but still has to charge, but is more effective at max charge (and when used, the attack resets to minimum charge). Or, just completely replace the current charge system with that one just suggested. I hope I'm making sense with this.

-builders are good now (albeit, not much of a change from the test build).

-Builders' inability to do much to a knight is good, but they should at least do something. I'm very much aware of dropping blocks, but most of the time when you get caught by a knight, you are either without stone, or underground/in a pit where dropping blocks is not possible.

-Builder v Builder is rather strange. It is complete luck if you win against another builder. I think a very simple way of counter this would be; whoever has higher ground does more damage (like hitting them on the head). This would make builder combat a little less random.

Nay, the archer is a long range class, and allowing them to be skilled in close range too would just be annoying, and archer spamming has pretty much been removed anyway (as in, you can still do it, but it doesn't work anymore (unless playing against a bad knight)). Also, adding another weapon just seems pointless.

Like I said earlier, I like this.

sounds like a good idea, but instead of 1 arrow every 5 secs, perhaps top up to 10 arrows (when below 10) every 10-20 secs?

Yes to longer spawn times on knights (or a new dynamic spawn system (I've seen a few people wanting this)).
The bombs only damaging manmade stuff is interesting, but sometimes knights need their bombs to scale natural mountains/chasms at the beginning. Perhaps when bombs explode on natural terrain, they destroy a block in every direction except below them? This could stop craters a fair bit.

I very much disagree with this. If anything, knights destroying blocks should be slowed even more. This is because right now it's still very easy for knights to take down a small defense, wall etc. they should be using their bombs on those defenses.

Skybridges are still around due to a bug(?), and need to be removed. I'm getting called griefer whenever I sabotage a skybridge because of how ridiculous I think they are.

 

No dont do this. Its easy as hell to get arrows. (And im a damn good archer, so dont think i dont know) if you want to spam arrows. Eather stick near a outpost (you get up to 10 arrows everytime to go up to it), or go up to a tree and collect arrows. Archers should not have a Regenerating supply of arrows. It would make fun situations like "Haha stupid knight take this, *Arrow, Arrow, Arrow, Nothing*, Oh shit!, RUN AWAAAAYYY" Never happen.

 

I agree with Swaggernuts. You can also retrieve arrows missed by right clicking on them.

 

We could just add a little hud that follows the cursor that warns you when you're 5 arrows or below

(I mean "we" as in "they" of course)

 

That's a good point, all the time spent cutting down trees really detracts from the Archer's pushing power. I don't like the idea of regenerating arrows, though. As much as I suffer from running out of arrows. Unintuitive and not very consistent with other materials; it also trots on the niches of outpost replenishment and tree cutting. I definitely agree with (and have lobbied for in the past) increasing archer spawn arrow count. Also making all enemies drop arrows on death would help with this.

I don't really like the stone dropping ability as it is entirely dependent on the state of the background tiles. Bad inconsistency, IMO. I think they should lose that and go back to having their little hammer/shovel/whatever attack hitting knights.

Also, has anyone ever seen really highly massed archers? Obviously mass knights is effective, and just a few knights is not very effective. How effective would 10+ archers all firing be? Maybe it's just that both classes need to reach a critical mass to become really effective.

 

I have no idea, but it would be awesome to see a group of mass Knights vs a group of mass Archers.

 

if the knights wouldnt rush like beasts, they would lose, archer knocks shield down 2nd hits 3rd 4rd aswell, dunno what ammount of archers and knights u talk about :D but archers would win^^

 

Yes but you forget that on maps with little trees or towards the end of the game where there are no trees left due to cheese (may not be a problem with arrows more so a problem with games lasting too long) arrows become impossible to get without retreating. This is not really fair since archers must have SOME way of pushing, but because they have to run away all the time to get arrows in no tree situations they become useless pushers, worse than they were to begin with. There needs to be a way arrows can be got slowly without trees as trees and outposts are not always available. I think knights and builders should spawn with a small amount of arrows every 3rd death or something and when they have arrows archers will show as blinking on the minimap and on the main map will have a small symbol above their head saying low arrows. They can then run up and give the archer some arrows to use. It would help the archer in a pinch and make late game a bit more durable for them. But I don't see archers then not ever being in a position to retreat if you make this possible as again, knights and builders aren't always there and don't always care whether you have arrows or not. Most of the time they do though because both classes are happy for an archers covering fire to reduce the amount of enemies.

 

You can get ammo from the main tent.

 

@ neat good idea, it aswell could be implemented into the score system, as some kind of supply. gives like 10 support score points.

suggestion : i would say giving only knights arrwos on spawn but every death, since builders will be lowered again and are already better behind the fronts...10 arrows on spawn for the knight would be good, and theres like nothing else he can do then support archers with so... just go for MM?^^

@ monsteri, ur not always on the main tent...

 

you can also get ammo off of outposts, Plus archers are a more Support class. Cause they sit back and support the knights. I mean yea they can rush in. But they will surely die to other archers, or knights. So really i think your idea of what an archer is, is flawed. I literally have no problems with the amount of ammunition i have. It takes like 30 seconds to get enough arrows to last you for 5 mins, Unless you spam arrow after arrow. In which case, you probably near an outpost. Which mean. WHAM infinite arrows. The ammo for archers is perfect. It doesnt need to be altered one bit. Though i feel archers seem a bit weak.. (this is comparing a skilled Archer to a skilled Knight.) Cause a knight can easily get tons of kills just. While if anyone knows that an archer is over looking a vally, they will end up puting their shield up and be Immune to archers. (unless you get some crazy timing, where 2 archer fire and the first arrow stuns while the 2nd hits) Archers fit their niche which is support, and they fit it perfectly they dont need any changes or ammo buffs.

 

You're not always near an outpost, how can you expect to be near one all the time? You're also missing my point in that i'm talking about late game when there are little to NO trees. Archers become useless after 10 arrows. Resupplying at the main tent is pretty piss poor because that's ages away. Resupplying at outposts when you only get 10 arrows at a time is pretty bad too because thats going to last you hardly any time at all.

EDIT: Plus let me ask you, how is it flawed? If you have no problems with ammunition yourself, you won't blink on the minimap and you won't show as having low arrows to teammates. Therefore the function doesn't change anything, it isn't flawed, it's a failsafe for when there are no trees.