New build discussion

I just want to point out that both Neat and Loki are two of the best players currently playing the game. They are pretty well known as good players, prominent in a leading clan, and have video/screenshot documentation to prove it. You are a relatively unknown player without any documentation, how can your claims of proficiency ring as anything but hollow? I don't think anyone should require any claim to skill to voice an opinion, but I think that you definitely need proof to backup your claim to skill. And unless you do it is a pillar of your argument gone which casts suspicion on all other basis for your argument.

A lot of your arguments are based on supposedly flawless skills you have, many of which strike me as impossible. 10 Arrows is not enough to get you 5 kills, whoever you are. You cannot have a 100% accuracy rate with latency, slow arrows, and how fast people move. You cannot do it.

And who cares if 10 arrows is enough for five minutes? Some of our archers, like Kagesha and vig can go dozens of kills without pausing to die.

And even if you are the "super amazing skilled player" that you claim to be, and are just not well known, your arguments are still flawed. Low arrow availability is as Neat was saying, a problem whoever you are, irregardless of skill. You say that you can run back to a spawnpoint. That's not a solution, that is a problem. You say it takes 30 seconds to get a good bunch of arrows? That's still a problem. Staying out of the fight for 30 seconds to get arrows for a moderate run? Even at max respawn, that effectively gives archers 3 times the respawn delay of knights. Don't you think that's a fucking problem? You could kill a bunch of guys in that time. And that's just you. What if each archer was on the field, firing, for another 30 seconds each life.

 

In the late game archers are borderline useless, unless they're defending an outpost.

In the late game the most effective way to get arrows if you're not near an outpost is to kill yourself,
simple as that. Low arrows encourage suicide.

Killing yourself should not be the best tactic in a game... yet in KAG it works great, no tower can resist a continuous stream of suicide bombers.

 

Contrary, you shouldn't weigh two good players over all the rest. Some of the ideas these people come up with are impractical, but that just comes with an open community. Don't think that means that other people don't have the ability to use that clump of greymatter in their noggins.

Look at it from their point of view; "More arrows = more spam"

This is an understandable thought since it's the only class with projectiles, and arrowspam is well, common. Really common. The thing is, though, that the rate of spam is relative to the number of archers in your group. You shoot one arrow at a time, then you wait for the next one to charge. One archer cannot spam arrows, it takes a group to do that, and you can't really do anything about that. People don't take this into consideration. It's not based on "flawed skills", it's based on their experience of watching arrows blot out the sun and give an anatomy class by splattering their teammates' brains all over the ground.

I forgot where I was going with this. Point is, you gotta look at it from their point of view. You make these things to satisfy as many people as possible, not the best players. And more arrows is fine.

Also, "regardless," not "irregardless." Pet peeve, hate it when people say that :p

 

Oh, I saw "best players" and "flawed skills" and that threw me off. It happens.

 

shad, i am for more arrows and ima knight which is alawys in the front, i dont see alot of spam with the arrows....
this is the middle - age - war.... what should that war be a like?

for mid-age-wars do we have too less archers on the field, too less arrow spam...

(sorry for my not so weak english btw)

 

Last night i got a bet more insultive than i normally am. But basically, Its not the fact that im completely against giving archers more arrows. I just dont want arrows to be handed to archers. I want getting arrows still be something that archers has to do if he wants to stay on the front lines for an extended period of time. And so far the best idea i think would be a new construction that builders could make that lets builders turn wood into arrows, which in turn archers could go to and collect some arrows out of it. (maybe even have the stockpile regenerate the arrows over time up to a max number.) I just want a reason for archers to have to retreat, (cause dieing isn't really a incentive to want to retreat since the respawn timer is like 3-5 seconds.)

Also i have found that archers seem kinda... ineffective right now. They have very little power on the battlefield... A knight supports a knight better than an archer does. And Builders are better at defending and attacking at range (If the builder knows how to use a catapult...) than an archer is. The only thing an archer can do is pick off other archers and ballsy builders. And sometimes they can snipe an enemy knight fighting a friendly knight.

Basically what im saying is. If there is a builder, a knight, and an archer all with equal skill. The builder and the knight are much more effective at changing the flow of the game, than the archer is.

 

Builders are still overpowered. You should stop them from tombing themselves into your own buildings and then plowing through the defenses, that's just not fair because you have absolutely no way of stopping them without killing your own castle. And that's bullshit.

 

I feel builders are only effective at plowing through when the enemy has very low defenses. The best way I see as a defense against a builder tombing himself inside your base is to just build up around him. He won't get far solo. But there are too many dumb-asses trying to dig him out when he is refilling the blocks behind himself.

Archers need more arrows as they re-spawn. Archers without arrows are completely useless, they're only good as fodder. Every other class has a secondary role given to them. Builders can build, mine, forge(outposts and catapults). Knights can bomb, shield, attack. Archers... they can only attack. Their purpose is to make arrows and kill. If they don't kill anyone they are practically wasting a class. Thus there is a big problem culminating with archers and a low arrow count. If they run out of arrows they can't kill, and thus do not fulfill their roles.

 

I feel like later, when archers get flaming arrows. They will be able to set things(tar pits maybe) on fire. But its not the fact of the arrows being low that hampers archers. Its how many arrows it takes to kill someone. I usually use 3ish arrows just to figure out the drop on the arrows. Then when i fight a knight i just spam arrows at his shield to keep him back (until help arrives) since i cant do anything more...

 

Yeah sorry Sani that was worded somewhat ambiguously. I said that I don't think people need to have any skill at all the voice a valid opinion, BUT when one's skill is a premise for their argument, then they need to back up the claim to skill or that premise is null. But in any case that's a closed book.

Swaggernauts you seem pretty in tune with the current opinion now. I am very much in agreement. I think that giving archers more arrows spawn is one important step towards giving them the value they need to have, but I don't think it's enough. I agree that longer respawns would be very boring to bad players, and that only leaves an increase in utility. But how can archers be given more utility? Make their arrow ladders usable by knights? But that's a pretty ridiculous idea. Maybe make doors one way only, so that archers can sneak in and open it up for everyone. Maybe make them hack outposts and stuff faster?

 

The archer would need a more ranged utillity cause they are a ranged class. Giving a "sneaking" ability would be making them a forward fighter, And id rather not have that happen... Oh wait... duh, Archers are gonna be more helpful when the workshops are made. Cause then archers would be able to make a ton of utillity arrows. (explosive,Flaming,Rope?!)

 

I like the idea of making it so archers can climb trees. Of course, that isn't very useful for raiding, considering that half the time all the trees are cut down for doors or something, but it'd be great for defending.

 

You'd have some nice vietcong/guerrilla warfare there. I like that.

 

How will you get an archer down from the top of a tree... its a cool idea but not practical.

 

Chop it down.

Alternatively, hitting the tree could knock them down so you don't have to chop it down completely.

Alternatively to the alternative, fire (we don't have that... yet??)

 

I don't think tree climbing is a good idea because 1. it overlaps with arrow ladders. 2. It's only good early game, where archer has the least problems 3. Dependent on random situational factor.

Also I don't like the idea of making certain people flat out more powerful than others (with flaming arrows and such) but that's another topic and a faraway one at that.

I think that to figure out a solution we have to focus on the core of the problem, on the tennis-like nature of KAG. In the most abstract terms KAG is like tennis, you exert force to stop and reverse the opponent's display of force. Archers do not exert enough force for a large enough amount of time. In other words, Force x Time. F x T = P, Momentum. Archers need to be able to add more to their teams momentum, or be able to stop the enemy's momentum more than they can know.

The momentum can be increased by either increasing the amount of time they are exerting force, or by increasing the amount of force they exert. Time can be increased by decreasing time spent cutting arrows. Force can be increased by increasing killing potential. I don't think anyone wants archers to be any better at killing, so it becomes apparent that time needs to be manipulated.

I guess MM was right all along. Archers are underpowered haha.

 

The problem with giving archers more arrows is that the archers still wont be able to stop anything significant. 1 knight can completely nullify 1 archer, and slow down 3 or more archers (yea if the archers have good timing they could kill that knight.... But we are talking pubbies... they cant time shit worth a damn) So really giving them more arrows wont do shit.
What im trying to get at is the amount of arrows is not the problem with the archers, the time spent getting arrows is not the problem (it might be a small problem unless the archer is boosted in some way then the time spent getting the arrows balances them out.) The problem is the (for lack of a better word) strength the archer is. The archer has only 1 thing really going for it, and that is that it can shoot. (yea climbing up walls is another cool thing but if an archer needs to climb a wall chances are its near the front lines which means its probably gonna die soon, most likely by a knight thats near by.

 

"the strength of the archer"

 

Thanks for pointing out my grammatical error... I fixed it....