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New uses for gold in CTF

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Ideas' started by 8x, Jul 16, 2017.

  1. 8x

    8x Elimination Et Choix Traduisant la Realité Forum Moderator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. [bhtp]Mainserver Staff
    2. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    1,215
    I thought of a small idea for having a different approach to gold in CTF, so as to make it a bit more of a dynamic resource, that offers different possibilites or paths to choose.

    At the moment, if gold is scarce, you choose between having 2 or more teleporters (+ a siege shop ) or having a siege shop with upgraded Bomb bolts. You have 4 uses for Gold atm: Siege Shop, Boat Shop, Teleporters, Bomb Bolts upgrade. I know at some maps there is like 1000 gold, some maps could be tweaked.

    My idea is to have some "small upgrades" for shops or resource gathering costing gold. The very basic idea:
    -100 gold (or any other amount we consider balanced) on a knight shop can make bombs cost 20 coins and mines 50 (forget about kegs atm)
    - 100 gold on a builder shop can give you 40 stone and 120 wood on each resupply (only on that shop)
    - 100 gold on an archer shop... this is more delicate, but perhaps bomb arrows cost 45 and fire arrows 25. Water arrows are already cheap.

    Perhaps, this might give another face to the usage of gold ingame, a bit more of depth (well we don't have bomb bolts, but our knights get 5 bombs for 100 coins). The upgraded shops would have like an icon of gold on its sprite (similar idea on the storage building), and gold could be retrieved for a different use.
     
    norill, TFlippy, Solaris and 15 others like this.
  2. eps0003

    eps0003 Arsonist
    1. Team TOXIC
    2. Winky Face Group

    Messages:
    411
    What happens if you have multiple of the same shop? Will the benefits carry over between shops or will it limited to each shop you use gold on?
    Will enemies have access to the benefits if they use your shop?
    Since shops are easily destructible I feel like it would get really annoying having to reapply the gold upgrade.

    Early concepts always have flaws though but in general this sounds like a really promising idea. +1
     
  3. bunnie

    bunnie Bison Rider

    Messages:
    983
    Interesting idea, needs some balancing but it's great. +1
     
  4. erik102003

    erik102003 Tree Planter

    Messages:
    91
    The most useless thing i could think of:

    Gold as ammo for catapults that instakill and has moar damage against blocks

    Also, what happened to this thing :gold_bullion:
     
  5. 4zK

    4zK Shipwright Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    56
    I like the idea of some kind of turbo discount, however I'd have it last a specific amount of time (and/or have a cooldown) and affect all shops
     
  6. eps0003

    eps0003 Arsonist
    1. Team TOXIC
    2. Winky Face Group

    Messages:
    411
    Gold isn't a disposable resource so that wouldn't work.
     
    erik102003 likes this.
  7. 4zK

    4zK Shipwright Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    56
    I was about to address this but then I read the entire OP and in it was stated that the gold should be able to be retrieved for a different use so I thought this was obvious which it apparently wasn't
     
    • Maybe coins can be converted into small amounts of gold?
    • I really like the idea of being able to upgrade the builders resupply amount. Maybe you can put X gold into the builder shop which increases the resource resupply of both wood and stone by a small amount, which can get really big if you keep putting more and more gold into it.
    • This whole suggestion would make all shops a lot more valuable. Builders would have to defend the shops a lot better so the gold isn't wasted.
    • If a shop is broken will any gold inside it be dropped? This may lead to players greifing because they would rather upgrade the knight shop instead of the builder's shop for example.
    • It would add more depth to the game. Gold could be used to get out of stalemates. Players can steal gold from each others teams instead of just stealing flags, and if coins could be converted into gold, it would make killing other players and not dying much more important.
     
    enderzilla747 likes this.
  8. BarsukEughen555

    BarsukEughen555 Horde Gibber
    1. Aphelion's Laser Wars

    Messages:
    397
    coinfarming on getting an entire new level, now 2x higher the platform towers!
    on a serious note, gold should be PERMANENT - not increase and not descrease by any means, and that's a generally fresh and nice idea
    +1 for original idea, -1 for joshua's suggestion of coin2gold
    and if shop's broken, gold obviously drops.
    on a theme of teamgrief, well, people don't grief tunnels to get gold for vehicleshop and bolts - and that's gud enough, if they do, though, BANT
     
    SirDangalang and joshua12131415 like this.
  9. 8x

    8x Elimination Et Choix Traduisant la Realité Forum Moderator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. [bhtp]Mainserver Staff
    2. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    1,215
    I know the "griefing risk", but that's always there. The idea is very undeveloped yet, so I like reading your opinions on this. The idea of gold being able to be retrieved, simply taken off from a specific shop instead of destroying it (as it hapens with siege and teleporters), is for avoiding peeps destroying others' shops. If a team just conquers an area and make let's say a knight shop, somebody could take the gold from base and bring it to the front knight shop.

    In my mind I thought of enemies being able to buy things at those shops, but not manually take the gold off from it, only by destroying it. Perhaps, a shop with gold could be also a bit more resilient, as a single bomb can kill easily 3 shops at a time.
     
  10. Get on it, devs. Chop-chop.

    +1
     
    The_Clev likes this.
  11. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Base Burner Tester

    Messages:
    232
    I dislike this idea a lot. It adds needless complexity (as seen in TTH). Gold doesn't need more uses (/ uses with obscure benefits / class-related benefits) as it'll create conflicts. As a limited (yet ~undisposable) resource, I want it to promote nonstationary (front-line) combat - not stationary combat / stalemates (as this idea). I want it to be risked (front-line) and stolen w/ somewhat severe consequences. I want an underlying battle for the gold.

    The stuff I've tried (uncommitted):
    • Made all spawn points (ballistaes, war boats) / teleporters (tunnels) cost 50 gold.
    • Removed the bomb bolt upgrade (replaced by bomb bolt material).
    • Removed the gold cost from the vehicle and boat shop.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  12. 4zK

    4zK Shipwright Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    56
    what if the bomb bolt upgrade was applied directly to a specific ballista instead of being an upgrade in the shop? combined with having the gold drop from the upgraded ballista upon destruction, possibly (and maybe a slight reduction in the cost of the upgrade)

    this could add tactical variety to maps with scarce gold and maybe answer the need of some that might advocate the nerfing of bomb bolt use

    sorry for sort of off-topic post
     
    BarsukEughen555 likes this.
  13. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,604
    Interesting case of convergence. I've got a drafted idea (and a task in asana) about more or less this kind of thing (a little more fleshed out, but honestly not much).

    The idea was actually to somewhat "nerf" the current shops (no water, fire, advanced explosives etc at start) and require teams to upgrade their base to gain access to more advanced stuff. I also considered a lumber yard and quarry that would spawn and store resources over time, but would cost gold to establish (and would not be team-locked, so the enemy could capture them).

    I'd be open to upgrades to starting gear/resupply and the like being included as well (more res from upgraded builder shop, free bomb resupply from upgraded knight shop) but it'd have to be done carefully.

    The conflict within teams is tricky but I think it might (?) help push military-only players to at least pay attention to gold (if not mine it themselves), as if they stole it and brought it home it'd be useful for getting them upgrades. The amount of salt when someone spends it on water arrows though might be hard to overcome :)

    I've held off on doing it for a couple of reasons
    • Nasty interaction with current shop menu code (not intended for changing capabilities, bugs can be see with ballista bolt implementation)
    • Complicated interaction with other gamemodes in some cases
    • Stuff Fuzzle mentioned about conflict within teams and even more defensive play
    • No time! This is a huge amount of work for all but the simplest implementation.
    I'd probably keep the current CTF as-is if I were to implement this, and make a separate "advanced" mode with the new mechanics. Happy to see some discussion of it but keep in mind how time-poor I am at the moment (and how absent MM is)

    (speaking of TTH, there's a similar document somewhere about "fixing"/simplifying TTH without taking away the idiot-friendliness of spawning with gear if your builders know what they're doing)
     
    4zK, bunnie, Blue_Tiger and 4 others like this.
  14. eps0003

    eps0003 Arsonist
    1. Team TOXIC
    2. Winky Face Group

    Messages:
    411
    This would require more servers to be hosted with this advanced mode which might cost a fair bit in the long run. Remember, you've still yet to host official modded servers in other regions, unless the official modded server idea has been a flop.
     
  15. I think the main problem would be splitting the player base. We need more players :QQ:

    What if in the official modded servers, players could vote for their favourite mod? People would probably keep voting the some ones so a cool down would have to be added to even it out for the players who aren't in the majority but it would (hopefully) keep the server alive, but making new gui stuff is buggy so nvm and forgot about this whole idea because you probably don't like this idea anyway lol
     
  16. erik102003

    erik102003 Tree Planter

    Messages:
    91
    No dont fucking tell him we are so close
     
    eps0003 likes this.
  17. 8x

    8x Elimination Et Choix Traduisant la Realité Forum Moderator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. [bhtp]Mainserver Staff
    2. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    1,215
    Thanks for the reply Geti, I was kinda waiting for you to share ideas.
    I simply would like to claryfy that this is not an undercovered suggestion to nerf for bomb bolting from my side. I don't care nowadays if players find this acceptable for the game balance (look where the red tent is):
    scr_1.PNG

    The point here is to add diversity to military and help knights and archers have more explosives to open castles up. The motif is not to reduce teleporter spam or bomb bolt spam. I don't see it making games more prone to stalemating, as you always should also have the possibility of making 2 teles or a siege shop (gold is not that much of a lacking resouce in most of the maps). Bomb bolt upgrade is the very same idea, imagine 100 gold for bomb arrows upgrade. It's not that complex.

    I understand however the problems of the suggestion.
    On a side note, dividing CTF into 2 modes would kill it, the playerbase would be divided unnecessarily.
    Somehow it came ot my mind the idea of "new features or changes" for KAG, to have some fresh air. I would even accept a new class being introduce.
     
  18. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Base Burner Tester

    Messages:
    232
    The needless complexities I was referring to:
    • Too many investment options (as seen in TTH).
    • Obscure benefits from these investments (as seen in TTH).
    • Inconsistent pricing (sidenote: It's also complex to balance prices).
    An expensive stationary shop (protected, probably at base) will help at the front-line? k.
    Consider a team with tunnels across the map versus a team with these shops. What a shitfest (stalemate).
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
    AsuMagic, Blue_Tiger and mcrifel like this.
  19. mcrifel

    mcrifel Arsonist Forum Moderator Official Server Admin
    1. Winky Face Group

    Messages:
    463
    I agree with Fuzzle, he has said pretty much everything I wanted to say but I still want to add to this discussion. At first when reading the initial post I thought it was pretty neat, especially thinking what effect this would have on competitive KAG. However thinking about it more I came to the conclusion it would make normal pub games worse. Doing this would turn CTF into another version of TTH.

    Having more uses for a recourse that at the moment has uses enough imo, will make it needlessly complex. I don't see getting cheaper items would be a smarter thing to do than setting up a tunnel system or getting a front line ballista with bomb bolts. So in a way it does help end stalemates by making your team lose.

    Also I wouldn't say dividing CTF into 2 modes would kill it. At the moment in EU there are usually 2 full CTF servers up from around 4pm to 10pm, meaning if 1 of those server would be the other game mode you would still have 2 full servers. I can't say for the other regions however. Not to mention having new content (if it is good) would bring older players and would slow down current players from leaving. Which means we might get 3 full servers or even 4.

    tl dr; Making the game more complex where there are 10 people who need to decide together what to get is a bad idea. Splitting servers isn't a bad idea if the new game mode was good.
     

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