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Official KAG Servers

Discussion in 'Server Directory' started by FuzzyBlueBaron, Jul 25, 2014.

  1. jimmyzoudcba

    jimmyzoudcba Bison Rider Tester

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    274
    Pretty positive malt you're more like "why does it matter so much?" But it does. Plz no just "just do it bluh".
     
  2. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

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    Im sorry to say this because it somewhat defends the act, but isnt exactly what he is doing enacting meaningful change? I mean i say fa**ot more out of natural response ingame than actually thinking someone is that. I dont use it as a slur against someone's sexual preference it just happens to be labeled in my head as one of those words used to insult someone's masculinity. Which is wrong ofcource because it implies to some people that i think gay people are less "manly" for being gay, which i dont. At the very least his stupid edgelording made me question to some other people why i dont deserve a mute for being offensive without reason(and why some bad slurs are "ok").
     
  3. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    3,730
    This is getting offtopic so this'll be my last post on the matter, but:
    You're pretty close to being on the ball here.

    The use of slurs in that way is - as we were talking about in the other thread - mainly harmful for the perpetuation of ideas which denigrate and exclude marginalised groups of the population. In your faggot example, it's not actually a "natural response" so much as a societally conditioned response, and each time you do it it reinforces that idea that gay men are worse than straight men. It also effectively puts that forward as your opinion to everyone who sees you doing it - noone can read your mind, so we tend to operate purely off what we've seen people doing or saying.

    This is why the "that word doesn't mean that any more" argument doesn't stack up so well, for those playing along at home. If you've gotten to the point where "faggot", "nigger", and "baddie" are all in the same basket, you might want to take stock of what that says to onlookers about your values.

    So, similarly to your angrily calling someone a faggot in-game, I wouldn't really put "hi niggers" in the basket of pushing the discourse forward - any work towards enacting change is being done by the reader there, not by his use of the word. As such, I'm happy for him to keep getting muted if that's how he joins the game.

    That's just like, my opinion though, dude.

    (Of course, the short version is "it's complicated".)
     
  4. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

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    Well I think that "faggot" has reached the point where I never affiliate homosexuality with it anymore. People (at least on kag) say it all the time and it's gone from being a bad word to describe homosexuals to just another meaningless insult to go on the list of meaningless insults. Well, it has in my brain. And isn't it a good thing to try to remove meaning from these harsh words that can make people feel so shit about themselves? If I'm calling everyone a faggot, then when I call a homosexual a faggot, it means nothing.

    I guess the only thing here is that if people are getting called a 'faggot' as an insult, then 'faggot' is being a bad thing and some gay guy might feel inferior because they are what the insult is meant to be. But why do black people deserve to be defended so strongly? I spent the last couple hours in an official server calling people 'crackers' with about 5 admins on and no one gave a shit. Surely by not condoning the word 'nigger', you are actually just implying that black people are inferior making you the true racist.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 22, 2016, Original Post Date: Aug 22, 2016 ---
    [16:31:18] <Maltager> tooth what is your opinion on the word 'nigger' ?
    [16:31:26] <makmoud98> lol
    [16:31:37] <ETID|toothgrinderx> my opinion is that your muted for the rest of the day
    [16:31:40] <WalkingTooth> its nice
    [16:31:40] <Maltager> [Player muted on this server]

    lol
     
  5. veronartdoob

    veronartdoob Bison Rider

    Messages:
    40
    awesome admin abuse level GOD
     
  6. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    3,730
    This is the next-level critical thinking that we keep you around for.

    You have the option to engage your brain, think about how people other than yourself might feel, and go read up about punching down, privilege, power, history, and all that good stuff that informs why "nigger" and "faggot" have vastly different connotations to "cracker". You can do this easily and cheaply on the internet or any sociology textbook.

    Or, the path I've got a sinking feeling you'll take, you can continue being a smug troll and wasting my time and the time of the volunteers who keep the peace on the servers we pay good money to keep running, and creep ever closer to earning a place outside of our community.

    Or, I guess you could find some middle ground and just try to be a little less of a dickweasel. Your call.
     
  7. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,274
    Couldnt the middle ground just be..........dont allow any racial slurs. For instance there was this guy, lets name him FUNK123, who thought it would be a good idea to ask an admin if it were ok to say "honky" towards people and he said "sure". So naturally FUNK123 being the funky individual he is said to red "ILL LYNCH YOUR HONKY ASSES". From this, to be honestly partially troll, thought experiment FUNK123 came to the conclusion it is ok to be racist towards your own race. Or at the very least use racial slurs if you are that race, hence why only one race is allowed use of the N-word. From this FUNK123 Personally concluded that the words arent the offense but the skintone(or perceived skintone) of the person saying them is the real issue. When a white guy calls a black guy a N-word it is automatically bad and he could never mean friend, but when a black guy calls another black guy the N-word it means friend? Same with honky just flip the races(and ofc it is less offensive for a black person to call a white person honky). I just dont think in the real world anyone would try to lecture a darker tone person on the connotations of the N-word because it is ok for them to use it(and to a similar but different extent white people). It just seems stupid from my point of view that it is usually a issue of the skintone using the slurs and not the mens reas.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  8. DatNobby

    DatNobby Bison Rider

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    157
    an admin does not automatically know the 'skintone' of people

    you're also implying that if someone is black they automatically condone the use of racial slurs which is blatantly wrong
     
  9. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,274
    boi. First off "perceived race". Second i dont think admins care about race. I think they see every game as some teenage whiteboy and the N-word as a baiting word.

    Third im not implying that everyone is ok with racial slurs im just saying generally that it is seen two different ways based on whether you are the skintone of the insult.
     
  10. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

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    899
    Lol, I understand how Punk feels now. "You disagree with me? You must be a troll". I haven't wasted anyone's time here, I'm just having a discussion about the situation of racism and slurs. You don't have to reply at all, and neither does any of your other "volunteers" (most of which just abuse their adminship to fulfil their own desires or power obsession, but that's another topic).

    Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. It's obvious you don't care about the argument at hand and just want to become the "winner" of said argument considering you are trying to insult me and make me feel lesser, and even threaten me with removal from the "community".
     
  11. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    3,730
    Muting you still takes their time, reading your posts still takes time, following up on people reporting you takes time, and "you don't have to respond" followed by direct allegations of abuse of power and character attacks is just more baiting.

    This isn't about "winning" anything. I'm dismissive towards you because you've consistently been badly behaved both on forums and in-game, and your posts here haven't shown any kind of remorse or will to change that. You're not a troll because we disagree - you're a troll because you consistently deliberately try to get a reaction by acting up both on the forums (13 warnings don't come about by accident) and in game (previously banned, see logs above). You don't get to suddenly take the high ground.

    You suddenly understand and get outraged about power imbalances and deliberate exclusion when it affects you personally, yet it's a mystery why cracker and nigger don't mean the same thing. The irony would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.
    Same goes for punk's "thought experiment".
     
  12. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,274
    What. Since when is realizing that the real issue is the stigma of the word, and not the word itself per se or the persons intentions(mens reas), outrage over power imbalances and deliberate exclusion? I just think it is alittle stupid that the rules say no slurs but for some reason some racial slurs should be tolerated. Also what youve done for two posts straight is use a "not as bad fallacy" as though that means fuck all to me. One might be worse but that is irrelevant you shouldnt be using racial slurs at all. You can assume that im a "privileged" guy on the internet who has an issue with "nigger being worse than cracker" all you want but that doesnt make it true. Funny how you can notice strawmen of other people but not from yourself.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2016
  13. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

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    899
    All of my warnings come from me doing something inside the rules, getting a warning point by some terrible moderator, getting pissed off, doing it over and over again, and then getting more and more warning points. I protest all my warning points greatly and I do the same ingame as you can see.
     
  14. Potatobird

    Potatobird Bison Rider Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    777
    Let's hope you never break an actual law then, because that's pretty much the opposite of a sane response.

    Geti's comment on power imbalances was more directed at Malt's problem with being dealt with in kind of a dismissive way.

    And honestly, sure, it does seem a little silly to only mute for some racial slurs, but there's such a broad range of hurtfulness when it comes to racial slurs. It isn't a "not as bad" fallacy if the fact (that they aren't on the same level) actually matters. Basically, it's not just that one slur isn't as bad as another, it's that one is bad enough to be muted for and one is so much less likely to heat up the chat that it's not worth punishing.

    Like, for example, I'm not gonna be muting people for calling aussies kangaroos, because I am not aware of that being an incredibly hurtful slur with a history. But if you legit get upset by any racial slur, let me know, and if I believe you're not just fuckin with me, I'll gladly dicsourage that in game however I need to. The reason I'm not gonna do that for cracker is because my perception of that slur is that nobody really takes it seriously. That perception may be wrong! Like I said, let me know.

    edit: a word
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2016
  15. Geti

    Geti Please avoid PMing me (poke a mod instead) THD Team Administrator Global Moderator

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    E: ninja'd, +1 for what Potatobird says.

    Punk that's not a strawman. A strawman is where you refute an argument that was not made by the other party. The "not as bad as" point comes directly from
    Cracker is not a "slur" that carries any weight, and it doesn't come from historical widespread societal oppression.

    My thoughts about your "thought experiment" are that you ignore all that history, as well as all the ongoing discourse around race and racism when you do a 5 minute troll experiment in a game and then use that to draw conclusions. It's very precarious to make any inferences from that. At the very least it's bad science (tiny sample size, no control, not building on previous work), at worst its highly reductive about a very complex topic. "The same goes" because Malt made similar inferences from his "cracker" experiment.

    My comments about outrage about power imbalances was directed at Malt. It was particularly about being up in arms about the admins abusing their power, while speaking in the same context as him being allowed to say nigger and faggot cause what's the harm? The analogy being made is that he doesn't experience any harm from the stigmas he's perpetuating by using those words in an inflammatory context - which is an abuse of the power imbalance he has as part of his privilege over those particular groups of people.
     
  16. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,274
    I was under the impression that a strawman was making someone's argument into your own interpretation of it. You dont actually have to defeat it you could just make it seem ridiculous. The real issue with the strawman is not that you beat some stupid argument but that you turned my argument into something that it is not. You took the straw you felt my opinion was and made it into a man(me). This is, though, just what i think it is and might not be the definition. Eitherway you atleast can get what i mean now.
    It also takes into account how i see people react to the N-word in real life(and cracker/honky to a lesser extent). I just wanted to give a literal recent example to illustrate what i meant. That said the historical context is so obvious that everyone knows it, so i didnt think it needed to be brought up. I do realise why the word is so much worse in most people's mind but that doesnt make it "ok" for another hateful word to be used. I think there is no real "science" going on anywhere in this discussion so i just suggested a conjecture(that the issue isnt the intent behind it anymore but really who says it). As for ongoing discourse of race and racism Id ask for context(somethings i agree on are issues in the criminal justice situations where black men get longer sentences(and on top of that get longer sentences for being men)). That said and the garden variety racism youd get from white supremacists, i dont see how any of this lowers the insult of being called lesser because of your race(when youre white. Again i dont care which one is worse. One being worse does not make the other one ok.)

    When you write an entire point and then at the end of it say "same goes for punk" i think the blame of the confusion would fall on your shoulders. Im sorry if i misunderstood your point but again not my fault when what you wrote is written as though you are responding to me in the same way you are responding to the flamebaiter.
    Again how am i suppose to know that when all trails lead to it being directed at me aswell.

    The "level" atleast in my mind should be the intent. I get why nigger is so bad but so is faggot yet it is commonplace. Only punishing something because it ruffles feathers generally is not something i am in support of.
     
  17. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

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    899
    Every time anyone has ever been offended by my use of the word 'nigger' or 'faggot', I apologise. If your objective is to decrease the amount of drama over something, you haven't done your job very well considering this thread.
     
  18. Potatobird

    Potatobird Bison Rider Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    777
    Well, I somehow got you to apologize, so I think I'm doing my job ok.
    :^)

    You're right about this thread being a little out of hand. I believe this kind of "drama" is exactly what you were seeking to create, so trolls win this round I guess, but I don't think it has been me starting/continuing/escalating things around here.

    Yeah, I'll be going after both of those slurs.

    All we're trying to do is provide an atmosphere in which you can just enjoy the game. That involves trying to keep arguments from blowing up in the chat, because it's hard to enjoy the game when half the server is standing around arguing about racism. That's one reason we ban certain slurs. It's also hard to enjoy the game when people are saying things that kinda hurt, so we don't want that to happen. This is the other reason we ban certain slurs. There's a million ways to be hurtful without those slurs, which is why you're not allowed to flame people in general on the servers. But I think you're right, even just commonplace use of the word "faggot" (and other slurs) can be pretty hurtful even if it's not being used to flame someone. So we'll ban that one too.

    So of course cracker isn't exactly ok, but we're talking about it in the context of how we deal with it in admin. Already, it's barely even relevant, because as far as I've heard "cracker" has been used in game exactly once, by a troll who was only saying it so he could fuel a drama outside of the server. Almost nobody says it, but if you want to get hypothetical, I'll indulge: I don't think "cracker" can either start heated arguments or be hurtful to someone if they hear it in passing, so I'm not gonna go after it unless someone's using it to flame. Another thing that can really harm the game atmosphere I mentioned is overaggressive administration; we don't want it to feel too restrictive, which is why we allow mild trash talk. I wish people would be nice, but if we muted things that are as hurtful as cracker, that would pretty much suck. Half the server would be muted and the other half would be rightfully in outcry about obnoxious bullshit admin.

    I hope that explanation of why cracker isn't ok but also isn't worth muting satisfies you. I have no interest in contributing to the intense and very political discussion about general race and racial slur climate, and while I can appreciate the importance of that discussion, I'm not really sure that it belongs in this thread.

    This is probably the last long-winded reply I'm going to give this topic
     
  19. Blue_Tiger

    Blue_Tiger Bison Rider Tester

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    899
    Reread that, I didn't apologise. And yes, I was seeking to create a drama - not because I'm a troll but because I hate censorship.
     
  20. Potatobird

    Potatobird Bison Rider Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    777
    This is the apology I was talking about
    I don't really care if you apologize to me, if that's what you meant, you haven't really upset me at all.