ReBalance mod discussion

While I agree, I feel like a lot of that becomes almost needed since they can move, siege would be a lot better if just redone, there should be immobile siege which straight up is much tankier but doesn't move at all (what most people use now), and mobile siege (hard to pull off usefully because most maps just don't make it worth while and movement is very odd with them to be honest).

Ignore those ideas, the whole thing just probably needs to be relooked at.

 

I love a lot of this stuff, especially the fire damage increase. I'd like a shift in damage from bomb arrows to fire, because it really sucks saving up for siege and then getting it instantly destroyed with basically no counter (even if you block it with a knight shield, the explosion hits right through and damages it just as much.) Fire just seems like the more natural counter to siege, and then at least the attackers have some time to respond.

The immobilization changes are absolutely perfect, I hate it when people randomly walk past and immobilize your siege engine just because that's how they see it done. Wheeled siege is a lot of fun. Another thing that might be cool is if you could "backpedal" with the siege, and maybe press space bar while moving to turn it around (same with boats?)

Some things I question though...

Spoiler: Criticisms

• Longer stone range (on catapult)

That just seems like more defensive incentive to me. Wouldn't that just make it hit even further from the top of a tower, making it yet more useful as a defensive thing? It costs a lot of stone, but if you put one up on top of your main towers then you can basically whittle down any forward structures the enemy might build.

• Removed class change

I can see why you'd take the spawning ability off of ballistas, that sort of transport and forward pressure should really be limited to tunnels. But I think you should keep the class switch option, I like it and how it's a more compact yet not as extensive way of providing class adaptability than building a bunch of forward shops. I don't see any reason to remove that part. (unless you do add outposts.)

The light/heavy ballista split seems interesting, I know it's been in discussion for a while now. It may be just a concept but could you elaborate on the plans for the light ballista? It's just kind of hard to picture what that would be like based on that short of a description for an entirely new siege engine. It seems like the reworked piercing bolt ballista, will it shoot higher-velocity arrows at a more horizontal arc? Will it still be able to hit through walls? Will the bolts have the same ladder qualities as current piercing bolts? Seems like it would be more interesting as a close range weapon in my opinion, but if it's to be used for "long range sniping" will it have a downward angle option (or perhaps require you to build a slope to get such an angle), and be like a mega mounted bow?
Or is that all up in the air?

Spoiler: Maneuverability

As for the maneuverability, it definitely sucks in most maps, mostly due to how it has a 50% chance of flipping right over the instant it touches a 2 or 3 block incline, and then locks in place while you try to flip it. The locking part will be fixed, but if there's any way to make it less inclined to doing backflips that might be good (but probably hard to accomplish). But on hopping.. what if it detected its drivers' bombs and was able to bombjump (perhaps at the cost of some health?) That combined with a less flippy personality would be pretty badass. Maybe just locking the angle of the ballista if it's in freefall would do the trick.

Yes yes yes, if you get a keg to siege that siege deserves to die (especially now that kegdropping is out). Tbh if you're able to keg it a builder can probably come afterward to clean it up anyway, but eh.

--

Miscellaneous siege topics:

How does everyone feel about repairing siege (with wood + money? or maybe stone)? Should probably be impossible when on fire, and take time - I'm imagining it like a builder's pickaxe but in reverse.

Also for fire management, buckets of water op and should only hold one or two charges. Then the more buckets, the safer you'd be! You only really need one bucket as is. It would be hilarious seeing everyone running back and forth between a pond and some flaming siege!

I'm pretty damn excited about this stuff, if you couldn't tell :>

 

If we're talking archer damage to siege, it should definitely be more geared towards satchels than fire, although fire definitely should be doing more damage to it than it is now.

I'm pretty sure siege aren't in the first wave of changes they're working on though, so there probably won't be much room to talk all of their changes until the first ones are done and we see exactly how those things interact and play together.

 

A few ponderings (feel free to disregard).

I've been trying to reason out a logical application of the following--

Spoiler

Three distinct (although definitely not mutually exclusive) roles for siege:

• anti-structure (i.e. killing towers)
• anti-personnel (i.e. killing players)
• area denial (i.e. preventing enemy from using terrain)

Three kinds of siege:

• light ballista
• heavy ballista
• catapult

The biggest struggle (thus far) has been trying to solve the following issues--

Spoiler: the catapult dilemma

Basically, catapults do two things atm:

• boulder-rektage vs towers
• catapult spam (normal ammo)

The first is incredibly cool and should, if anything, be promoted (<3 @Skinney's idea of attaching a workbench to the back of the cata). The second is a VeryBadThing, almost literally cancer, and needs to be reduced/removed/prevented if at all possible.

Spoiler: the ballista quandary

Consider:

• ballista is easy to kill (2x bombarrows, lol)
• ballista is hard to kill (put it on a high tower at edge of its range)

Either can be true in my experience; however, fixing the first problem (give more health/resistance) exacerbates the effect of the second problem (it can be really hard to get close enough to deal damage).

Thus far the only solutions I've been able to envisage are something along the lines of:

• re: the catapult dilemma
  • remove 'standard' (i.e. spammy) catapult ammo
  • implement @Skinney's "attached workbench" idea so boulders can be readily available (now the new 'standard' ammo)
  • possibly allow gunners sitting in the catapult to craft & load boulders w/o getting out of the seat (makes mobile gun platform possible; also just reduces overall fiddliness)
  • see firearrow for ballista

• re: the ballista quandary
  • branch ballista into heavy & light ballista
    • buff health, nerf range for heavy
    • nerf health, buff range for light
  • nerf bombarrow effectiveness re: ballista to align w/ damage from knight's bombs
  • buff firearrow effectiveness re: ballista (e.g. longer burn time, chance to set driver/gunners alight)

----

A further musing:

If the following is true:

• light ballista snipes with accurate, penetrating bolts
• heavy ballista lobs explosive bolts

Then possibly (given that cata spam area denial would be gone):

• An alt fire mode for heavy ballista which sees the explosive bolts blow up into shards mid-air, allowing for a "death from the sky" area-denial attack which lances down in a relatively restricted/narrow AOE (and thus is more dodgeable/predictable and less spammy/cancer--unlike the cata spam variety of area-denial).

 

All siege should feel a lot heavier.

 

Well, that's the enemy's fault for trying to put it on some kind of perch. It can be stabilized really easily taking almost no materials or time. Knocking over siege to quickly destroy it is fun and preventable, it doesn't need to be fixed.

 

Just a followup/clarification re: range--

My thought was that the light ballista would basically wind up firing primarily horizontally (along the X axis) whereas the heavy would wind up firing primarily vertically (along the Y axis); thereby helping to maximise differentiation between the two.

Re-reading this bit this morning and thinking "gosh, that's a really significant change for cata". But, tl;dr, I honestly can't think of a suitable non-spammy replacement for cat that does area denial (AD) w/o being cancerous like cata-spam (although, ofc, if someone works out how to do that, that's brilliant! ).

The hard truth is that AD, while fun for the person doing it, is almost always boring as dirt-sandwiches for everyone else. The suggestion of giving heavy ballista a form of AD attack was made with this "one-sided enjoyment factor" in mind bc, while I ardently detest cata-spam, it felt like there aught to be something that filled the gap left by cata-spam and this seem like the least obnoxious way to do it.

Along the lines of "how is this less spammy?"--

• The bolts can be seen getting lobbed up and over before they splinter (something I kinda picture in my mind as looking like this: http://grab.by/FMsa) allowing a savvy archer to shoot them down mid-air (same as already happens w/ current ballista explosive bolts); which is a welcome change from unstoppable cata-spam.
• There's also the possibility of allowing knights to shield against the falling shards (if they have the presence of mind), changing AD from something that completely seals off an area to something which forces the enemy to take countermeasures.

Also, having an AD option gave the heavy ballista (something I'd suggested to have limited range, due to a vertically oriented firing arc) a way to defend itself against enemies; but only if you intentionally swap firing modes and actively aim at/predict the movements of incoming enemies--a refreshing change from the mindless defensive spam of both current catapult and ballista.

I dunno. Is just thoughts to address problems I've not seen adequate solutions for yet. Make of them what you will. :3

 

...why should that be added, though? I don't see the purpose.

 

I'm against complicating item acquisition and crafting, IMO items in the builder shop requiring materials and coins should be as complicated as it gets.

 

I think that idea has merit but should probably go in it's own thread if it's not going to be part of this which it seems is the case.

As for Area of Denial (response to FBB above), I'm not sure if part of this rebalance idea is to have Skinney's mechanism as a class, or not, but if so I feel that there is probably more than enough AoD there with better/more responsive spikes among other things

As for the rest of the ideas in that post, I honestly think that allowing the area you can visibly see, when in a catapult will help dramatically, as it is now you're really just fucking firing randomly relying on either getting out to see damage, the minimap, or friends telling you if you hit or not (obviously your own presence of mind coming into play here but not always 100% accurate as things change down/over there). That alone might be enough to fix a lot(not all) of what is wrong with siege.

 

Tbh that sounds ridiculous, builders don't need to also be mini-knights. Axes doing a jablike stun would be much more welcome in my opinion than a "builder slash".