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ReBalance mod discussion

Discussion in 'Classes & Mechanics' started by Rayne, Mar 13, 2015.

  1. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Bison Rider Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    818
    Verra you said you fixed a lot of bugs with crouching? Are you referring to door and platform bugs?
     
  2. Verrazano

    Verrazano Flat Chested Haggy Old Souless Witchy Witch Witch THD Team Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. Practitioners of War Extreme Revolution - POWER

    Messages:
    477
    Yea, you also can't fit down 1 wide holes anymore. I also added a little hop feature so you can get up 1 block. There are still a few things to fix with it, it cancels your charge and wont let you start your charge until you re-click. Also the platforms are a little worse for wear right now.
     
  3. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
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    It doesn't add any complex strategies, its main two points are simplifying the game flow with arrows to reduce the tedious trading merchant gameplay and allowing noobs access to special arrows.

    You can take other routes for this, but a crafting system alike to this just fits much better to the game's flow.

    Fwiw you don't even need to craft your own arrows for a counter, it's just an example i used.

    Whatever I'm on mobile so cba to refute all your points since you didn't bother properly reading my posts anyway.

    Another way to go about it is to make speeding with the grapple more consistent, buffing Archer normal arrows and giving them more coins. The Archer is only an useful class because of his specials, otherwise you're always better off as a Knight. This is why i wanted to streamline his ability to fire special arrows. Archer would be a useful class 24/7, not a vanity class you pick after you get tired of being a knight or on some niche situation where a tower is barely hanging, but there's a frontline preventing you from bombing it. If you want to make archers a serious class that is actually worth picking over a knight, you'd have to either make their special arrows more prevalent or increase their capabilities with normal arrows. The latter we've tried, and it's awful when the archers are all grouped up.
     
  4. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    Messages:
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    I honestly think just increasing coin flow to archers would be an easier way to increase their access to special arrows; it keeps consistency with how the other classes get their special items and is very easy to understand. What you've suggested would be great for a mode like take the halls, where the gameplay is supposed to be influenced by economy, you could set up some very nice advantages for your archers if your econ is growing well. When we start the rules revamp phase of the rebalance, I'd consider adding the arrow crafting to TTH.
     
  5. SlayerSean

    SlayerSean FYI: it's pronounced "seen"

    Messages:
    191
    People play for fun, not for blowing stuff up endlessly. They don't need endless specials, or specials at all, it's about the feeling of "oh yeah i just sniped that guy in the ASS!" or "SHOTGUN TO THE FACE!!!"
    Wouldn't this confuse people because it's two widely different ways to get specials, and it only applies for archers? Right now it's relatively the same: make a shop, pick what it gives you. Only difference is whether you pay or not.
     
    Noburu likes this.
  6. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    In his original post he said you'd be able to craft them from your inventory, not from a shop.
     
  7. SlayerSean

    SlayerSean FYI: it's pronounced "seen"

    Messages:
    191
    I know. I was saying how currently both versions use shops.
     
  8. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    No reason you still wouldn't be able to craft the arrows within the shop interface as well. You still buy normal arrows like now anyway.
     
  9. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,276
    so can a builder still stand behind set of doors and spam a drill while still damaging through the door and NOT DAMAGING THE DOOR!?!?
     
  10. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    Messages:
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    ?? I thought you didn't want that?
    Am I the only one not seeing how this is more intuitive than hit enemy to gain coin?
    I'll take a look at the drill code to see if I can find the problem.
    EDIT: this happens because the drill doesn't raycast blob blocks.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
  11. Azazyl

    Azazyl Shipwright

    Messages:
    8
    Since archers are getting a ridiculous buff. I think knights should have a little more defense against "CLOSE QUARTERS" arrows, regularly fired arrows would be slashed only with 4-5 tiles within the knights range. Archers have an up close defense against knights already, the shotgun. I don't think that these arrows should be able to be slashed, but only single fired arrows. It takes archers so little time to fire off a charged shot. And arrows already stun. This class has major support roles in the game, up close and personal is not the style of archers. Fire arrows do 3 hearts of damage, Shotgun is 3 hearts of Damage, regular shots are up to 2 hearts. Water bombs stun for entirely too long and charging a shotgun with normal arrows and switching the arrow type without any visible change and firing any arrow of choice. Just ridiculous. None of this even impacts the mobility of archers with their grappling AND the new ability' being able to crawl through 1x1 empty tile holes. Escaping is their forte. toe to toe combat... Should not be.

    Proposing here that ONLY single arrows fired within 4-5 blocks of a slash could be cut. This wont affect long distance archer support. Think about how minuscule 5 blocks is, and how far arrows go.

    Knights have lost the ability to detonate kegs by slamming them from up high, this raises skill to play knight and use kegs. Bomb jumping has less vertical distance impact, and shield stunning is being planned to be removed. What else do we have. What else.
     
    dual_chiecken and BlueLuigi like this.
  12. NinjaCell

    NinjaCell Bison Rider

    Messages:
    357
    This would actually be a total pain. All it will do is make archer-knight combat even more annoying. It stops archers from timing a follow up shot on stupid knights who get tripled without their shields up, and then mistime a slash at close range. So now knights can screw up twice and still survive. I mean a decent knight will have like no openings at close range, not a small opening, none. The best you could do is a half-shot, but you'll still die anyway.
    Also, what ridiculous buff are you talking about? Almost all of the archer changes have been utility based. Crawling through one black holes is not going to affect combat. The only buff I see is fire arrows being stronger, but they cost coins and if they have enough for a fire arrow, you'll have enough for a bomb (not even taking into account coin differences). Archers have water arrows, knights have water bombs. Have regular shots been changed to two hearts? That hasn't been mentioned. If they have your change may be more justified. (Well more justified, but two hearts for a normal arrow is horribly broken).

    The keg dropping thing is to stop spam and has nothing to do with slashing an archer right in front of you. Same with the bomb jumps.
    Shield stunning is actually a factor, though I don't think this is the right way to buff knights.

    If this change does go ahead, I would prefer only half-shots being slashed. It's your own fault if you get hit by a fully charged shot tbh.
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron, kodysch and Noburu like this.
  13. Potatobird

    Potatobird Bison Rider Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    777
    I thought they were just going to get rid of the ability to slide towards somebody at double speed and stun them with a horizontal shield bash. I don't think they were going to remove shield bashing totally, that sounds like a really bad idea.

    As for the rest, I think arrow slashing only for single shots would just incentivize more shotgun meleeing. I don't really like the idea of knights just being able to move around and constantly be slashing and a threat while still relatively defended from arrows. They should have to choose when to strike more carefully, and risk being vulnerable to arrows if they choose poorly.

    Why not the reverse? Make shotgun arrows slashable. I always felt like shotgun was sort of a pain in the ass for knights, and pretty unfun. I wouldn't call them a defense mechanism, because normally charged arrows have the same defensive stun option, but you can use it on shorter notice. They're only ever really used offensively against knights. There's not really much knights can do about an archer with a charged shotgun, it will stun them and hit through shield no matter what, usually before they're in danger of getting slashed. If they were slashable, though, then with some skill (and I guess a bit of luck) knights would be able to have a chance.
     
  14. Monsteri

    Monsteri Slower Than Light Tester

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    1,916
    Being able to slash shotgun arrows just creates bs situations for both parties due to lag. Non-charged shots can be slashable if you ask me, but a single charged shot should not. Firing at a fighting melee group is impossible then.
     
  15. Azazyl

    Azazyl Shipwright

    Messages:
    8
    I'm in the mumble with the mod Dev a lot, Archers will be getting a 2 heart shot yes, the only reason I posted it is because he told me to. I don't know why he hasn't mentioned anything about full charged shots being upped to two hearts. Either way time it takes out pull out a slash after being stunned is an issue with the Archer's up close stun being at a 3/4 charged shot they are the same, either way. Archers should NOT BE up close. They're getting buffed for all utility, sure. More fire arrow damage, longer running around helpless, One shot builders. More regular damage arrows, utility balance my ass. You say it's utility, but it's not JUST utility. Why give them both? Money isn't an issue for archers and their regular arrows they get free arrows from hitting trees in the mod now with their "spacebar." Also every 30 seconds FREE arrows are dispensed at the tent, and archers sniping archers all over killing one another in one shot, arrows will litter the towers and battlefield. 15 coins for 2 fire arrows, 25 coins for 1 bomb. Archers also have bombs too, which the price of them will be dropping due to their different functionality. (Rayne you needa update sirrrr.)

    Give knights satchels, and the ability to throw their sword, let them break through stone with jabs, "CUZ UTILITY."

    Give knights one more defense up close. Archers should be farther away than people think they should. A stunning arrows is already FURTHER than 5 damn tiles, being that close should not be taken so lightly. But it is. And now they have more, and knights have less.

    Slashing arrows at 5 blocks sounds like hell for archers who don't play archers for what they're meant for. Long range support and close range escape, zipping through the battlefield and grappling through trees and bombing towers from long distances... etc.

    They ALWAYS do 2 hearts of damage even when a knight is shielding up close. 3 when they're hit while trying to slash.(Shotgun arrows shouldn't be damaged by slashing, it's archer's true defense at close quarters combat.) And fully charged single shot arrows doing 2 hearts at any range will just be absolute fucking nonsense. Archers already get their kills on knights who are fighting other knights 70% of the time, by staying back and just firing shotguns/full charged arrows. Even more kills will come from this change.
     
    dual_chiecken likes this.
  16. Why should an Archer be 1v1ing a knight up close? Thought its admirable, I dont think an Archer V Knight situation should be balanced but a bit more in favor of the knight. As of now an Archer can mindlessly kite around the knight and wear them down, Now you're adding damage buffs which will just put it in more favor of the archer. I think the other mechanics for the archer are cool but my opinion on the archer 2 heart shot is just a bad idea. I can live with the fire arrow doing 3 hearts of damage but other than that-

    This would work well too, even though the idea of a 2 heart arrow shot sounds pretty damn bad.
     
    RampageX likes this.
  17. Rayne

    Rayne ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester

    Messages:
    1,916
    wait what? i don't want archers getting a 2 heart shot, and never said anything about that on mumble, I'm actually probably going to remove the extra fire arrow damage since oodle(one of the best archers) thinks it's ridiculous. Dunno where you got the 2 heart shot from, but you probably misheard me. I told you to post the knights slashing arrows thing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
    Blue_Tiger, Yagger, NinjaCell and 4 others like this.
  18. hey maybe remove water bombs thanks
     
    RampageX, Blue_Tiger and hierbo like this.
  19. Yagger

    Yagger Kouji's bitch 5eva Staff Alumni Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    646
    [​IMG]
     
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  20. Potatobird

    Potatobird Bison Rider Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    777
    I wouldn't call kiting mindless, it's a hell of a lot better than the "sit on tower and camp" option. I'd say kiting / medium range archer combat is comparable in skill (aka ten times as mlg #archer4lyfe) to romping around as a knight. It should be encouraged as much as possible over melee and camping, but two damage arrows is a godawful way of doing that, it never had a chance of getting in.

    One thing that might be a better way to change archers than to increase their spec arrow "utility" (I think the extra fire arrow damage is a bad idea too) is to make arrows have a piercing ability, as in passing through unshielded targets they collide with to damage more people in a group/line, possibly with reduced damage after the first target. This would encourage more medium-range archer combat because you could use your mobility to get the best angles to do extra poke damage, and thus be more useful than camping behind platforms.

    or for a crazier/cooler/probably-impossible-to-code idea, snare arrows to replace water arrows. They pass through their first target and create a rope/tether to whatever else they hit, which, with some skill, could be used for a number of things similar to but less frustrating than water arrows.
     
    Azazyl, kedram, NinjaCell and 2 others like this.