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Reduce door spam.

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Ideas' started by kodysch, Feb 14, 2015.

Mods: Rainbows
  1. kodysch

    kodysch Ballista Bolt Thrower Staff Alumni
    1. Archers [Arch] (Recruiting)

    Messages:
    454
    Wooden door spam is cancerous due to the fact that you can get large amount of wood quite easily.
    I suggest that wooden doors spread fire more easily, even when they have stone back wall, and with testing maybe spreads 1 space away not just adjacent.
     
    swagbot, norill, Kububv and 2 others like this.
  2. hierbo

    hierbo Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    190
    How about we revisit the whole "the saw is dumb" line of reasoning? That would address the problem (too much wood, too easily obtained too quickly), rather than the symptom (people build colossal abominations out of their billion wood).

    What do you think of that means of addressing your issue?
     
  3. kodysch

    kodysch Ballista Bolt Thrower Staff Alumni
    1. Archers [Arch] (Recruiting)

    Messages:
    454
    I hate to remove things that are already in the game. I'm okay with structures just not the door spam that happens, easy to build easy to destroy( if you build it wrong). I'd rather buff something than nerf it.
     
  4. hierbo

    hierbo Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    190
    As an engineer, I l love removing things! Specifically, finding ways to get the desired results with less, particularly if the piece being removed is trouble-prone, is what engineering and design are all about.

    I may be in the minority, but I find the high availability of wood to be a bit of a blight, leading to all sorts of silliness, not just doors. To make matters worse, I believe that wood costs have been balanced based on crazy high wood availability, forcing everyone to participate in the big harvest.
     
    Stevedog, Corpsey and EhRa like this.
  5. That, or make wood significantly more vulnerable to fire.
     
  6. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Bison Rider Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    818
    Wood is already vulnerable to fire. I don't see door spam as much as a problem as before and even if someone builds a cancer tower you can still take it out with siege, kegs, tunneling, bomb arrows, or not letting them get that far in the first place. I do have to admit, wood is very easy to obtain from tree farms. It can still be countered by fire tho
     
  7. kodysch

    kodysch Ballista Bolt Thrower Staff Alumni
    1. Archers [Arch] (Recruiting)

    Messages:
    454
    But it is a problem with doors, 2 stone to make it fireproof is op and needs a counter, with how easy it is to spam. not to mention how fire is fincky when placed on dirt backround.
     
  8. TheDirtySwine

    TheDirtySwine Bison Rider Staff Alumni Donator

    Messages:
    818
    With the amount of wood you can get from tree farms and spawn mats I don't see why it would be that big of a deal to make it more flammable
     
  9. kodysch

    kodysch Ballista Bolt Thrower Staff Alumni
    1. Archers [Arch] (Recruiting)

    Messages:
    454
    It would make spamming of doors an unwise move as if you did such they would end up in flames. As it is now it is far far easier to place wooden doors then destroy them.
     
    swagbot likes this.
  10. AmestriStephen

    AmestriStephen Bison Rider Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    335
    The funny thing is that "wood door spamming" builders are considered OP builders.... It's just.....SPAM.
    And it is actually quite annoying, especially as archer >:
     
  11. mcrifel

    mcrifel Bison Rider Staff Alumni Tester
    1. MIST

    Messages:
    582
    How about (have been said to much but i don't care) we just make fire arrows CHEAPER! This makes wood less op including wooden doors.

    One other solution is to make wooden doors cost 35 wood instead of 30

    And maybe even make normal stone blocks 12 stone instead of 10 so wood has to be used more in general defense and that means fire will be more effective as well.
     
    Verzuvius likes this.
  12. AmestriStephen

    AmestriStephen Bison Rider Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    335
    I agree about that from 30 to 35 coins per door
    But the cost of the stone should not be higher
     
  13. hierbo

    hierbo Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    190
    Is this opposite day? The door spam is the symptom of wood being too easy to get. If you make everything cost more wood (or increase the cost of stone stuff to further encourage wood use), you are treating the symptom, not the cause. What happens when you do that is that you just have tons of fixes and patches, then fixes and patches for the fixes and patches, and so on, and so on, forever.

    If you don't fix the root cause, you're making the game worse, not better.

    To do that, the problem needs to be accurately characterized, which I think you have done. See below:

    Problems listed:
    Wood door spam is OP
    Wood spam in general
    Doors are too cheap
    Stone blocks should cost more to encourage wood use (?)

    All of those (except the stone blocks one, not sure how that fits) are symptoms of this problem:
    Wood is infinite, easy to quickly get in mass quantities, and highly spammable.

    THAT is the problem that needs fixing. Making wood less useful or insanely susceptible to destruction invalidates any potential legitimate uses for it. That means that the ONLY effective use of it remaining is to spam it into annoying but flimsy obstacles, which is exactly what you all seem to want to stop.

    The only thing I can think of that will really achieve your desired result is to make wood more scarce, slower to harvest, or both. How you do that is up for debate, but I assure you, that's the only thing that'll do what you want.
     
    Kububv and kodysch like this.
  14. AmestriStephen

    AmestriStephen Bison Rider Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    335
    Slower growing time for the trees, less resupply wood
     
    Kububv and hierbo like this.
  15. hierbo

    hierbo Ballista Bolt Thrower
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    190
    Now you're on the right track. I would have gone with "delete the saw and lets all pretend it never existed", but that is just my personal preference. Your idea has much broader appeal and would work fine.

    Also, making trees take way more hits to knock down could work, too, even in conjunction with your idea.
     
    Kububv and kodysch like this.
  16. Verzuvius

    Verzuvius Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    545
  17. Fernegulus

    Fernegulus Bison Rider

    Messages:
    400
    Let me hear you again
    Reduce what?
     
  18. Forsooth

    Forsooth Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    7
    The problem with this is that currently, builders are somewhat underpowered; door spam (and, more generally, wooden-structure-spam) is one of the few things they can reliably use to contribute.

    So you have to be careful in fixing it; if you increase the costs of wooden doors or, worse, make it more difficult to get wood, then builders are really going to need a buff elsewhere to replace it. And it's not obvious where that would be:

    You could give them some other way to build / dig more rapidly, but that could lead to the same problems.

    You could make it harder to destroy stuff they've built, eg. nerfing explosives, non-builder damage to doors, and -- possibly, if the fix is to make wood more scarce -- fire. But that will make the game more slow-paced, which isn't necessarily desirable.

    Alternatively you could shift the builder's purpose in other ways (make them more capable in fights, so building is just part of their function rather than their sole thing), but that has its own issues.

    Personally I'm not convinced that it's a problem. Wooden structures are pretty easy to deal with. And beyond that... is it fun to force builders to spend significant amounts of time mining / chopping wood in order to construct anything? Especially in the current fast-paced games, where there are so many ways to bypass or destroy structures?
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2015
    bru-jaz, Blue_Tiger and PeggleFrank like this.
  19. PeggleFrank

    PeggleFrank Base Burner

    Messages:
    125
    The main weakness of wood is fire. You build a wood base, you get a flaming base. You build a wood outpost, you get a wood outpost. You build a wood tree farm, you get a flaming tree farm.

    The problem is, when that wood is encased in stone or divided up, one fire arrow doesn't destroy all of it anymore. It might take out some wood, but the stone will prevent the fire from spreading. So, what do you do? Kegs. Bomb arrows. Bison. Tunnels. Bombs. Grappling hooks. But all of those solutions are so much more difficult and costly than just sending a fire arrow straight into the structure and having it instantly light up into flames.

    Making a stone wall with wood platforms inside is currently the most effective wall, and replacing the platforms with wood blocks can make it efficient too. However, because the wood encased in stone (and probably not directly or indirectly touching every other wooden tile), you can't light it on fire anymore. Not efficiently, anyway; you'd be wasting one fire arrow for just a few blocks of wood, and it wouldn't even crack the stone that surrounds it.

    The solution to this, I think, would be to make fire spread at a longer distance. If there are a bunch of wooden platforms lined up, but they're separated every so often by a little stone, they should all light up the moment one of them catches fire. It would, for one, making fire arrows more useful, longer, and, secondly, it would encourage builders to use more stone in their structures. If you divide up a wooden part of your tower with 3 blocks of stone, those two wooden sections shouldn't catch each other on fire. If there's only one block of stone separating them, then they should both catch on fire.

    This could go a long way to get rid of some more cancerous wooden structures, as well. If you have a bunch of wood doors and stone blocks in a grid pattern, the wood doors won't light each other on fire as long as they're not touching. If we increase the fire spread radius, they will catch on fire as punishment for not encasing them in stone.

    If fire spread more easily, wood would still be a great choice for walls (mainly due to platforms), but it would need to be more readily protected by stone. Full-on wooden structures would still be somewhat effective, but only behind the base, where an archer with fire arrows would be unlikely to get to.
     
    SlayerSean likes this.
  20. HappySheep

    HappySheep Horde Gibber

    Messages:
    38
    I only see tears. Every class has it's pros and cons.

    Do you want to make building stuff to be weaker? Then noone will be playing builder and everything is going to be archers+knights.

    Builders MUST have a big impact in the game in order to make it playable.

    Refer to my sig for resupplies and material maths.
     
    bru-jaz and J-man2003 like this.
Mods: Rainbows