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Slopes at the base of the tower.

Discussion in 'Building Critiques' started by Didgedy, Feb 12, 2016.

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Is this a good idea?

  1. Yes.

    16 vote(s)
    76.2%
  2. No.

    5 vote(s)
    23.8%
  1. Didgedy

    Didgedy Arsonist

    Messages:
    82
    So, I just got kicked from a server for griefing (IE building stairs for the enemy). I believe I should seek other peoples opinions on this design.

    So, here's the general idea. It cost 500 stone/750 wood, and ,realistically, the slope might be larger, but, like I said, it is the general idea, not the actual design.
    screen-16-02-12-19-03-22.png
    The bit in question, as you most likely have already guessed, is the slope at the front. So why is it, that I consider it beneficial to the integrity of the tower, for the front to be sloped? This is because there are 3 main threats to a towers integrity:
    1)Catapults/Ballistae
    2)Kegs
    3)Builders
    Now, this design does nothing to protect against the first threat, however, it does in the remaining two:

    In the case of kegs, one would have to bring it up the slope, where it will be a prime target for archers, and, if tossed there in a hurry, then it will roll down towards the bottom, where the damage would be minimal.

    In the case of builders, the situation is that they usually build a small roof to protect themselves. When it comes to perpendicular walls, it takes 3 blocks and a door(enough to build with replenishment resources). In this case, it is more difficult to make a roof, as you need to cover a larger area.

    In any case, the base of the tower will almost always be the most vulnerable, even if there is a saw trap, it will not last for long in a real siege-most tower designs I've seen others build take one keg to get through.

    So what do you guys think? Should building a slope be considered griefing? Do they add to the towers integrity? Will Donald Trump be elected president? Please, share your thoughts!
     
  2. 8x

    8x Elimination Et Choix Traduisant la Realité Forum Moderator Tester Official Server Admin
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    1,313
    I think the idea is ok, it might look impractical, but that's just because we're used to vertical walls. Thing is, you have to guarantee a proper navigation for your team, and cut as many possibilities of climbing for the knights as possible. I did some tweaks on it:
    castle.png

    Mainly: imagine that an enemy bombjumps the castle abd passes to the other side, the doorson the exterioor of the right side provide a path only for yourteam (blue arrows in the pic). You usually have to block the way back for the enemies in case they bypass your castle, otherwise they're free to go up and attack you from there.
    Moreover, with doors in midair, orin the middle of a wall, sometimes you have it hard to enter, as you have to press Jump and Left/right, and release one of these while youjump in order to not to collide with the walls and enter the doors. The following gifs illsutrate it, and the soolution i had, where only holding JUMP and RIGHT worked for entering safely into the castle. This might look nonsense, but it's very important for builders to go safely back into cover. Those platforms also block possible arrow ladders.

    large gifs linked
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    The better navigation imo is when pushing UP + RIGHT/LEFT works for getting out of or into your castles.
     
  3. ParaLogia

    ParaLogia tired Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    1,133
    Seeing new, serious content in Building Critiques . . . it fills me with determination joy. :heart:

    It is totally understandable that people have a negative reaction to that structure, based on first impressions. That's because, generally, you want to put the easy route (e.g. stairs) on your team's side and the hard route (walls) on your enemies' side. It feels wrong otherwise.

    I find your reasoning interesting. I can see how it might inhibit enemy builders and kegs to some extent. But technically, there are more factors that threaten the tower, like bomb arrows and mines. (The stairs do nothing against bomb arrows, and make enemy mines more dangerous.)

    The other, most significant factor is knights. People build high walls to avoid getting slashed in doorways. If even one archer dies in the door, it can open up a breach for countless enemies. When you make a stairway that leads up to the door, it negates this benefit of a high wall. In my opinion, this (along with the mines) makes me think that the cons outweigh the pros in this structure.

    That said, I haven't seen such a structure in play before, so we can't know for sure, unless we try. Which I probably will, next time I play.

    Also, the stuff that 8x said is very valid. Knight flow is very important, but it requires experience in both knight and builder to master. It also brings me to a point that's somewhat relevant to the OP.

    People tend to shy away from stairs, regardless of direction. I always see rectangular buildings throughout the battlefield. But I believe that stairs, when faced properly, have a huge benefit for dealing with enemies inside your base. If a skilled knight gets in your base and destroys the ladders leading up the rectangle's wall, they can camp endlessly on the roof, killing any players who try to engage. A few blocks to approximate stairs, and the issue is solved.

    I may have more to add later, but I g2g now
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron, Didgedy and Lava like this.
  4. Lava

    Lava Former Lag King Staff Alumni Donator Tester

    Messages:
    230
    But you can sit a keg on one block without it rolling ._.
     
  5. Potatobird

    Potatobird Bison Rider Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    775
    Honestly, you make a pretty good argument for those stairs! You've clearly thought this out and it's not griefing. A questionable building technique should not be "considered griefing" unless the builder intends to use it to harm their team. But generally if your team is getting pissed off at something you're building because they don't get it or think it's dumb, just back off, let them tear your carefully thought out shit down and explain to them why you think it's a good idea. It kind of sucks to have to deal with stubborn poops like that by letting them have their way, even temporarily, but it's better than getting into a silly build/destroy squabble where one person is building blocks while the other is destroying the blocks at the same time.

    I like the reasoning, and I think it might work decently against those things. But like others have been saying, you have to take into account not only how durable a structure is, but how helpful it is for your team / how much of a hinderance it is for the other. The stair shape isn't a problem because it's "easier to climb" (I don't think it is really), but because it effectively makes the height an enemy has to climb to get over the tower shorter. I think usually this wouldn't actually be a problem at all, and as 8x pointed out there are ways to make it harder to climb as well, but if the stairs allow knights to climb over the tower with no bomb, or even to have slash access to the platform section, that's bad.

    There may be other ways to accomplish that durability that don't dampen your tower's height advantage. Your "small roof" argument is pretty interesting and smart, actually, but I think bombs are usually effective enough at dealing with boxed in builders that you don't need to worry about that as much. Also if a builder has time to set up a lil roof on any tower, the extra second they would need to do it on stairs would be pretty inconsequential.

    So, how about dealing with builders trying to burrow? My go-to is platform blocks. They're an absolute bitch to get through as builder, so put a layer of those in a section inside your wall or behind it, or even in front of it if you have a lot of wood and don't mind knights breaking them. Also, you can use them to defend doors, which are like the path of least resistance (and most free mats) for burrowing. Placing platforms like this lil diagram will force the builder to break the platforms before the doors, but the platform blocks don't impede anyone.
    :castle_wall::castle_wall::castle_wall:
    :bridge::stone_door:
    :bridge::door:
    :dirt::dirt::dirt:

    As for kegs, they're pretty much damn impossible to build against. Your stairs might actually be one of the better ways, but they can still just climb up the stairs, collapse your tower from there, and then climb over the rubble with those very stairs. The only real way to defend against kegs is with people.

    Little microtechniques like this are really important to pay attention to! :D
    Thank you for pointing that stuff out
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron, Magmus and Didgedy like this.
  6. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,273
    pretty cool, though if the platforms are infront of the door(facing the enemy) i could see a builder just cover up the platforms(and you cant target the blocks when you are standing inside the platforms) so you would have to go over your tower and break the blocks that way(to make your entrance), or you'd have to break the platforms to break the front blocks.
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron likes this.
  7. Didgedy

    Didgedy Arsonist

    Messages:
    82
    So, I have noted the flaws which you have outlined in the structure, so I re-did the thing. Its a lot bigger, more time/resource-consuming, but I think that this solves the ease-of-access problems atleast (not to mention the lamps and backwalls next to the plats, which make it look cooler and more menacing, for a while, anyway :P)
    Untitled.png
    The slope is still there, added some spikes/plat for easy escape from raiders, the door has been heightened to stop people running through as much, the wall facing our base is very easy/fast to travel upwards of, still hindering the enemy, and the lanterns look pretty cool there.
    I also like potatobirds idea, yet I have not incorporated it into the structure, as I did this before reading the post, but will definitely remember those plats.
    In regard to mines, I do notice how they are might prove a substantial problem, yet, could downward platforms solve it? Do they also muffle mine explosions?
    And about the keg, I mean that you couldn't drop the keg in a hurry, and if you spend a lot of time trying to place it so it doesn't roll, then you shall die in the process, which still could help.
    Also, an it occured to me, that if the top portion was kegged down, the base of the structure would still be there, ready to be built upon again (if you aren't about to lose :( )
     
    DatNobby likes this.
  8. BarsukEughen555

    BarsukEughen555 Drill Rusher

    Messages:
    434
    Best defence is good offence
    just go knight 'n' rekt those cheeky scr00bz trying 2 steal ur precious mats, then cap flag and keep on building houes for chickens
     
  9. Didgedy

    Didgedy Arsonist

    Messages:
    82
    Is this what you had in mind?
    Untitled2.png
     
  10. Potatobird

    Potatobird Bison Rider Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    775
    Yeah, definitely, I use that door reinforcement a lot and that's how people counter it most of the time. It isn't too hard to just go over/through the tower and drill the blockage from the outside, as long as you pay attention and actually remember to do it! It's also more dangerous to fix it that way obviously, but I think it's worth it, especially if the enemy has a lot of builders who love breaking my doors.
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron and PUNK123 like this.
  11. Fellere825

    Fellere825 KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    890
    Do what I did, become a kag guard so you can build whatever without being kicked. If you are adding stairs add spikes too or something that makes those stairs costly to climb.
     
  12. BarsukEughen555

    BarsukEughen555 Drill Rusher

    Messages:
    434
    I just came with idea, why won't you do upside slope?
    So like at down its simple 3 blocks but at top its 9
    gr8 for nothing
    i tell ya
     
  13. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,273
    because knights can jump 5 blocks but builders cant
     
  14. Lava

    Lava Former Lag King Staff Alumni Donator Tester

    Messages:
    230
    Depends on the knight.
     
  15. Gofio

    Gofio Gunwobbler x3

    Messages:
    1,090
    This is a good idea but it just doesn't work. Any proper suicide bomber will hold on to the keg and block the arrows.
    It's also terrible against sappers - usually they would tunnel through the bottom - the thick part. Now they can climb the stairs, block the main doors, stand on those blocks and tunnel through the thinnest part of the wall.
    (just imagine that this was a large tower. They could destroy it easily because they can reach its weakest link with your stair and two or three blocks)
     
  16. miniswrider

    miniswrider Bison Rider

    Messages:
    98
    if the enemy can get on top and block the doors, that tower is very easily convertible against your team.
     
  17. atthetta

    atthetta Builder Stabber

    Messages:
    77
    I prefer slopes at the top of bases but not at the bottoms.

    Those stairs/slope would be best to prevent an enemy builder setting up canopy and undermining the build though. That's, probably, its most effective use. The keg prevention is negligable. Scaffolding is the best keg-ballista prevention for shattering a build.