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Sponges should have multiple uses before breaking

Discussion in 'Balance' started by Tern, Apr 12, 2017.

  1. Tern

    Tern Quickfish Donator Official Server Admin
    1. Zen - [Zen] - (Invite Only)

    Messages:
    175
    I'm not talking about the average scrubby archer camping towers the entire game in CTF. Good archers rarely miss.

    Furthermore, maintaining enough gold to buy water arrows consistently is as simple as staying alive, doing damage, and getting the occasional kill. I'm far from being a decent archer, but when I play archer even I have enough gold in a typical CTF game to buy six water arrows on each life, and I always have gold to go back for more as long as I'm not mindlessly feeding.
     
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  2. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler

    Messages:
    296
    I suppose I shouldn't continue this discussion. You don't state facts.
    I don't defend water because I'm biased: I never use water (I would if it was overpowered).
    You can't say water is impossible avoid. It's not.

    That's cool. Water arrows don't kill? Still wasted, bro.

    The sponge is imbalanced (too expensive - in time and coins - in relation to what it's worth). I don't see it as a balance element versus water. It provides a mechanic that modifies how we'll act on the battlefield (more reckless). For those who behave recklessly (already) it may seem like balance.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
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  3. epsilon

    epsilon Assonist THD Team Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. Gather Oceania
    2. KAG World Cup 2018

    Messages:
    505
    Agreed. It's just water so why should it affect you behind blocks? realism lol
    This is mainly due to most MLK matches being intercontinental. Since each team will be at a significant disadvantage when on the opponent's server they tend to use water strats to hold back the enemy since the rules take into account the time it takes for each team to cap the flags. I'm not sure if water strats are used in 'local' matches as much but from my experience I can safely say this is the case in intercontinental matches.
     
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  4. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

    Messages:
    449
    Fuzzle i have actually stated many facts
    Water arrows are too cheap as is, they penetrate through two block thick walls, they are long range aoe stunning and capable of going through shields. Honestly just this list of things alone should be far more than enough to warrant a nerf on water, but for the sake of the argument lets continue stating more facts showing how broken water really is.
    Water takes little skill to use effectively, and if your actually decent at archer you will almost never miss with water arrows. that being said if you put water arrows in the hands of an at least decent archer you can expect about 90% of his water arrows to affect the battle significantly. The only ways around water is to hide behind a wall thats at least 3 blocks thick ( which shouldnt be a thing at all might i add) or to have someone on your team go archer and load up with more water arrows to do counter water arrow runs, at which point the fight turns into whoever buys more water arrows wins. So uhhhhh,,, is that enough facts for you? I think it should probobly be enough, maybe i missed some here and there but this should be enough.
     
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  5. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler

    Messages:
    296
    What's your definition of 'fact', bro? Donald would be proud.

    Indeed, water has some code that can be improved. I wouldn't consider that "balance", tho. The 'radius' for water arrows is not a radius - a water splash is squared (4 × 4 for water arrows). It doesn't raycast: It can penetrate blocks. The code for this was out-commented. It's expensive in performance but I'd personally enable it.
     
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  6. Tern

    Tern Quickfish Donator Official Server Admin
    1. Zen - [Zen] - (Invite Only)

    Messages:
    175
    We're not talking about water bombs.
    Are you implying that good archers will use water without securing a kill, or at least damage? Weak counterargument.
     
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  7. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler

    Messages:
    296
    Then, the 30% @kedram came up with. You believe it's more? I'm baffled.
     
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  8. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

    Messages:
    449
    Fuzzle, tell me what it was out of those facts that i stated that you feel aren't facts, because im fairly confident in all of my statements being very on point, if you can actually point out specific facts that i have said and provide proof of them being false in some way then go ahead. If it turns out im wrong about something then i have no problem admitting as much.
     
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  9. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler

    Messages:
    296
    Not a fact. That's your opinion.
    Not a fact.
    Not a fact.
    In fact, that's not a fact either.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
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  10. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

    Messages:
    449
    Fuzzle.... i have to say your completely insane if you think water isn't cheap, because it most certainly is. It is 20 coins for 2 water arrows, that's 10 coins for 1 essentially. Just one water arrow if placed correctly can cause more than one person to die. This couldn't be more true than in serious clan wars. When we look at archers on the lower end of the skill tree we see that they do miss, but im almost certain that if you put water arrows in the hands of an archer that is at the very least decent, they will in fact hit their mark most of the time. As for ways around water, i think i mentioned just about the only 2 ways around water, feel free to state any other ways that i haven't mentioned but as of now literally none come to mind. So yea, if you see anything here that's incorrect, provide PROOF, like i said and not just label everything NOT A FACT.
     
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  11. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler

    Messages:
    296
    I'm out.
     
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  12. Tern

    Tern Quickfish Donator Official Server Admin
    1. Zen - [Zen] - (Invite Only)

    Messages:
    175
    Nice straw man.
    Good riddance. Your arguments are easily as poor as stating opinion.
     
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  13. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

    Messages:
    449
    I would say below the average skill level for archer, about 50% or more is wasted, but at average and above you see it go much higher, its not hard to aim and shoot a water arrow that has an aoe effect and have it at least stun one person in a large crowd of people, in fact i would be very surprised if someone managed to do that consistently where they just shoot and miss an entire crowd of people. Fuzzle I want you to know that the reasoning im giving you comes from sources of proof. Usually when i play archer every once in a while and i use water, after about 15 minutes of wiping off the rust i can confidently say that about 90% of my water arrows actually hit someone, and about 40% of the time i would say that i end up hitting multiple people. Out of all of the times i hit anyone with water i would say that 70% of the time it results in a kill, and when we look at the amount of times that i end up hitting multiple people i would say about 90% of the time at least one person dies as a direct result. When i look at archers like oodle or tater, i can confidently say that they almost damn near never miss water arrows. Fuzzle, if you want proof of the idea that water is way too cheap, ask like 10 people who you don't know, and im almost certain that they will tell you either that yes water needs a price increase, or that yes something should change about water. There might be like one guy that tells you no, and if your really lucky then maybe 2. The reason why im so certain that water is indeed very cheap is because i only remember 2 occasions where someone actually told me that they weren't cheap, one being with maltager, and the other with you fuzzle. Notable archers who have told me water is cheap and needed a price increase are, skinney, tater, oodle and a few others whos names escape me.
     
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  14. Tern

    Tern Quickfish Donator Official Server Admin
    1. Zen - [Zen] - (Invite Only)

    Messages:
    175
    Let's find out.

    I collected stats on water arrow usage from this match of MIST vs AG#, which should be fairly representative of competitive KAG with experienced players in general:
    https://forum.thd.vg/threads/mist-vs-ancient-gear.26597/.

    Video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvm7E31JD7o

    The answer? Not much.
    • With 58 water arrows used, players were hit 54 times (93% player-hit rate)
    • Considering 54 player-hits with water arrows, players died 27 times within three seconds of being stunned (50% lethality)
    Keep in mind that many water arrows included in the non-lethal section resulted in (or at least contributed to) kills after three seconds had passed.

    Whether or not that kind of utility is balanced at ten coins apiece is a different question.

    Edit: He's deleting posts; we've successfully routed @Fuzzle.
    [​IMG]
    Cached site: https://goo.gl/AdLfLw
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
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  15. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

    Messages:
    449
    Seems like i was fairly spot on with my theory of the average water hit rate being around 90% and in fact being more by about 3%. of course other matches may vary, but overall you will see it be around 90% most of the time. the other statistics i gave was more indicative of a pub match, so it would make sense that in a serious clan war death rates wouldn't be quite as high as 70%. Overall though i think this info is a good insight into just what water does in clan wars and how effective it truly is. In my opinion, in a professional clan war setting, having something that can reliably net you a 50% chance to kill, is completely absurd and should not be a thing. Just the fact that its basically a guaranteed 50% chance, it confirms to me how horribly broken it is. When you look at bombs i can say for sure that in a professional setting, a bomb would probobly have a 40% or even less chance of killing someone, and maybe like a 50-60% chance of hurting someone. Of course bombs are more expensive and you only get one, and bombs definitely take allot more skill to use at extremely high tiers of play. The way i look at water arrows is simple, it requires only a moderate amount of skill to use in comparison to the bomb, it cant be countered, is really cheap and is overall better than a bomb if your looking to kill someone. I think that about sums up the full extent of how water arrows compare to the knights staple utility.
     
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  16. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,273
    Should you not die if you get hit by 2-3 water arrows? What about 2-3 water bombs? How many coins should someone have to spend to immobilize you is the question that anyone wanting to nerf water needs to answer.

    It is a stun feature that adds to the gameplay. It involves teamwork and stops one player from dominating the field. While i do agree it i too easy to "fund" a water spamming group, I dont agree that it should be super easy to counter several water arrows/bombs(simple teamwork by knights, with archers spamming water, can pretty easily stockpile coins to fund water on the next death).
    I think the point fuzzle was making is that it is the perfect counter to a single problem(ie one or two really skilled knights). Does aoe on water arrows stun if it isnt a direct hit and youre shielding? I would assume not but to be honest a situation where it has or hasnt happen does not come to mind atm. As for going through blocks, i feel like it is very fair for an archer to have a legitmate shot to slow down a tunneling builder(same with knights to a lesser degree). So yea stunning through blocks is completely fine. As for range and accurate....it's an arrow what do you expect.
    It is ridiculous to say something doesnt make sense when it visually doesnt make sense? Unless your point is that the devs should add in frames(inwhich case id point out how lackluster other areas of the games are functionality-wise and request you not hold your breath lol).
    Someone can argue that you are ignorant towards the use of an item, without personally attacking you(especially when the argument is that you do not understand the situation but the other person does). To call that a personal attack is a bit of a stretch. For everything you're saying to be accurate Fuzzle has to be wrong. Are you daring to personally attack fuzzly by saying he is wrong and in-accurate BLASPHEMY!!!!!!
    Three things:
    number one balancing the mlk is entirely different from balancing the base game

    number two we need to balance bombs because theyre thrown over and over again every match in the mlk

    number three if the argument is that you need to have a skill(or strategy) to avoid water, then it isnt an attack to say you are semi-skilled.
    Yes, because it is a fucking stun item and it can be used to stun and escape. Alternatively he could be making the point that you cant be killed by knights if you remain far enough away from an archer-with-water's team. Point being dont charge into battle if you dont have a strategy to counter the enemy's(other than slash-chain for days).
     
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  17. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

    Messages:
    449
    Punk, i kind of feel like you didn't really bring anything to this whole conversation. Just to say that its a stun item doesn't mean it needs to be as strong as it actually is right now. Ive discussed this several times already as to why water is an issue but i will do it again here just so you definitely see it. Water arrows are extremely cheap, 20 coins for 2, the cheapest anti infantry item in the game by far. they are long ranged and accurate, yes i know they are arrows but im stating this because it needs to be stated to explain the power a water arrow holds. They go through shields, are an aoe stun, and can go through 2 solid blocks. If your are blocking however and a water arrow splashes on the ground right next to you you don't get stunned but, i have explained why this is still a bad thing in the long term. Often when water arrows are used they are used against groups of knights so trying to shield a water arrow amid-st a huge team fight is actually really stupid and will possibly result in the death of your team, but oh wait it doesn't matter because your all dead anyway because of the water arrow chain stun. the whole thing with water arrows going through 2 solid blocks is completely absurd in my eyes, and probobly everyone's eyes too. Even fuzzle said that if he could he would fix the issue but that it would be taxing in the long run. I already explained what my thoughts were for bombs in my previous post so go look at it there. What we are trying to do is discuss ways of actually balancing water, there's no way you can look at water with a straight face and say that its totally fine the way it is and needs no changes, just ask around and im sure you will see a recurring theme of people saying that water should probobly be changed somewhat.
     
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  18. PUNK123

    PUNK123 Hella wRangler Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    1,273
    I did ask how much you think it should cost to stun a player. I asked this because i feel it is the first thing that needs to be answered when wanting to nerf water. I also disagree with the main suggestion that you should be able to spend 15 coins to nerf 4-5 direct hits by water. My real issue with water is the crowdfunding that teams can do(because water arrows really get cancer when archers spam and knights fund). The bonus to a large group of knights working as a group is slashchaining, the bonus to a group of knights with a few archers is the ranged work that archers can do. That involves stunning the enemy from a distance and accurately. As for the "stunning through 2 blocks" you need to realise that this would be a pretty big nerf to archers/knights counter to actual tunnelers. I dont think that being behind 2 blocks and being stun spammed happens anywhere near as often as waterspamming tunnelers. As for bombs, i was sarcastically saying that a cheap item from knights is being spammed so we need to nerf it in the same sense that a cheap item from archers is being spammed so it needs to be nerfed. It was satirical and meant to point out how weak the argument was.

    Should water probably be changed? Yes, but knights shouldnt be able to cancel it out almost completely through coins.
     
  19. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler

    Messages:
    296
    Nice idea to count. That said, I decided to count too (+ some extra factors).
    I recorded a total of 71 water arrows used: 22 misses, 61 hits (49 arrows) and 29 kills (24 arrows).
    I recorded a total of 17 water bombs used: 7 misses, 15 hits (10 bombs) and 2 kills (2 bombs).
    93% hit rate and 50% lethality is bullshit. Prove me wrong.
    Water arrows used:
    02:48 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    03:04 : 1 hit
    03:14 : miss
    04:19 : 3 hits, 1 kill (1 k)
    05:01 : miss
    05:08 : 2 hits
    05:11 : miss
    05:19 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    06:58 : miss
    07:10 : 2 hits
    07:11 : 2 hits
    07:12 : 3 hits, 3 kills (2 k, 1 a)
    08:02 : miss
    08:05 : miss
    08:08 : 1 hit
    08:40 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    08:48 : miss
    08:50 : miss
    08:53 : miss
    08:54 : 1 hit
    08:57 : 2 hits, 2 kills (1 k, 1 b)
    08:58 : miss
    09:00 : 1 hit
    09:07 : miss
    10:05 : miss
    10:23 : miss
    10:39 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    10:40 : miss
    10:41 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    11:02 : 1 hit
    11:05 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    11:27 : 1 hit
    11:28 : miss, self
    11:38 : 2 hits
    11:39 : 2 hits, 2 kills (1 k, 1 b)
    12:04 : 1 hit
    12:06 : 1 hit
    12:07 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    12:13 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    12:23 : 2 hits
    12:30 : 1 hit
    13:12 : miss
    13:14 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    13:18 : miss
    13:32 : miss
    13:34 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    14:19 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    16:16 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    16:24 : 1 hit
    16:51 : 1 hit
    16:52 : 1 hit
    16:53 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    18:21 : 1 hit
    19:16 : miss
    21:03 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    21:04 : miss
    21:59 : 2 hits, 2 kill (1 k, 1 b)
    22:26 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    22:39 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    22:40 : miss
    22:59 : 1 hit
    23:01 : miss
    23:15 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    23:20 : 1 hit
    25:05 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    25:35 : 1 hit
    25:49 : 1 hit
    26:12 : 1 hit
    26:47 : 1 hit
    26:56 : 1 hit
    26:57 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)

    Water bombs used:
    02:06 : miss
    02:20 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    03:44 : 2 hits
    06:16 : 1 hit
    06:19 : 1 hit
    07:17 : 2 hits
    07:19 : miss
    08:50 : 2 hits
    09:11 : 1 hit, 1 kill (1 k)
    14:12 : miss
    14:18 : miss
    19:38 : miss, self
    20:58 : miss
    21:00 : 3 hits
    23:13 : 1 hit
    24:59 : miss
    24:01 : 1 hit
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
  20. Potatobird

    Potatobird Bison Rider Forum Moderator Mapping Moderator Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    775
    Guys, people are never gonna be able to come to a consensus on what precise level of water stunnage is tolerable. It's just a boring and/or lazy mechanic that will always annoy some people regardless of how it enhances "muh tactical gameplay." These silly statistics fights aren't gonna get us anywhere.

    If you ask me, we'd probably be better off getting more ballsy with our suggestions and changing water more drastically. The idea I usually like to throw out is to convert water weapons into purely knockback tools, that deliver a lot of force to send people/things flying but do little else. I think it would make them more simple, fun, funny, and flexible.
     
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