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Sponges should have multiple uses before breaking

Discussion in 'Balance' started by Tern, Apr 12, 2017.

  1. Tern

    Tern Quickfish Donator Official Server Admin
    1. Zen - [Zen] - (Invite Only)

    Messages:
    175
    I'm glad someone else went over the video as well. Your collection appears to be very thorough.
    Your rates are actually very close to mine. With your data, there is an 86% player-hit rate and a 48% player-hit fatality rate. Note that player-hit rate is not the same concept as accuracy.

    As far as the balance of water bombs, my position is the same as yours (which is why I didn't collect data on them in the first place).

    On a side note, what were these "extra factors"? Are you referring to the addition of data on water bombs?
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
  2. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler

    Messages:
    296
    The original question was:
    That's 1 - 24 / 71 = ~66.19% - a lot considering it's a competitive game.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
    Asu likes this.
  3. Tern

    Tern Quickfish Donator Official Server Admin
    1. Zen - [Zen] - (Invite Only)

    Messages:
    175
    That is true if you count an arrow that didn't result in a kill as being "wasted." Also, what was your time window for recording deaths as a result of water arrows? Did you only count kills on players if they were stunned at the time of death?

    The original question aside, player-hit rate and player-hit fatality rate give much better insight into the effectiveness of water arrows.
     
    Magmus likes this.
  4. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler

    Messages:
    296
    If a water arrow (or bomb) hit led directly to a kill I recorded it as a kill.
     
  5. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

    Messages:
    449
    regardless what the stats were i think potato has a really good point about what should be done with water. ive always looked at making water cost more as merely a band-aid on an issue that actually required surgery. its just very dificult to figure out what kind of different mechanic water should be scrapped for. And to be totally realistic i dont think the devs will ever do such a thing, even if the idea is good...
     
  6. Tern

    Tern Quickfish Donator Official Server Admin
    1. Zen - [Zen] - (Invite Only)

    Messages:
    175
    That is why we should focus on the original topic of this thread, the sponge buff, which is a change that might realistically find its way into a future patch and indirectly nerf the overpowered water arrow.
    That's very vague.
     
    Magmus likes this.
  7. SirDangalang

    SirDangalang Lvl. 128 MissingNo. Donator

    Messages:
    235
    I disagree with this mainly on the principle of what @PUNK123 brought up how we should be discussing how to change water arrows to benefit the regular pub experience that is the core game rather than the competitive scene.

    To cut to the chase, the current water arrow mechanics requires teamwork to be effective and is quite easy to master.

    This is GOOD for new players to compete with the experienced. I feel it is essential for a game like this since we tend to forget that a lot of the mechanics and meta of this game is difficult to learn and apply which is a massive turnoff. Water is the gateway drug that can entice new players who then go on to be effective in other ways.

    And they will do this because in the grand scheme of things I believe water does not win games if simply fired from a tower randomly at people. Their is skill to timing shots to leave the opponent exposed, otherwise it really is a harmless annoyance. Perhaps it is too easy to coordinate given its abundance in games but even so there is a meta and it is not mindless firing.

    Since it's impact can be exploited with its abundance I do agree a change is in order however, I would love to see a tweak that changes the metagame whether it's this sponge buff, increasing the cost of water, perhaps even buffing fire arrows in some way as a better choice than water.

    But remove the mechanic completely? I disagree. Especially with a knock back arrow? It sounds fun but it adds very little to the meta game I feel besides something like shooting lit kegs across the maps which sounds awful.

    Honestly though I really want this sponge buff opposed to increasing the cost of water. In my opinion it is always better to buff in a way that balances the meta to make it more interesting, rather than to nerf with cutting off bits of the game that some people enjoy and others don't.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
    Tern, Magmus, mcrifel and 4 others like this.
  8. Cohen

    Cohen Base Burner Staff Alumni Tester

    Messages:
    55
    I agree with Amin, decreasing the cost of sponges or buffing them in other way is a good idea.
     
    Magmus and epsilon like this.
  9. Atheraal

    Atheraal Base Burner

    Messages:
    15
    I haven`t played in about a million years, pretty funny seeing that water spam is still an issue. Why not just halve or so the range of the water arrow? The bomb arrow too while they`re at it, bombs and water are heavy, no? Make them go farther than a water bomb, but not as far as a reggie arrow. Then they can still be used to defend the area under a nest, but you dont have the center battlefield being splashed unto mud hell. At least, not without the archer risking actually getting up close and personal.
     
  10. epsilon

    epsilon Assonist THD Team Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. Gather Oceania
    2. KAG World Cup 2018

    Messages:
    505
    Consistency. Having certain arrows travel different distances is a bit too much.
     
    Fuzzle likes this.
  11. asger75

    asger75 Bison Rider

    Messages:
    232
    Don't trust this water spammer, he's of MIST ORIGINS!!!!!!11!!!1!
     
    SirDangalang and BarsukEughen555 like this.
  12. atthetta

    atthetta Builder Stabber

    Messages:
    77
    Water arrows and bombs are fine as it is.

    If you're having problems as a knight against archers then you can blame bad builders for not building roofs, ramparts, and barriers for your team.
     
  13. The_Osz

    The_Osz Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    19
    Confused.png
     
  14. Asu

    Asu THD Team THD Team Forum Moderator

    Messages:
    1,578
    I think he might just not realize you could play outside of your base
     
    an_obamanation likes this.
  15. atthetta

    atthetta Builder Stabber

    Messages:
    77
    I was responding to Atheraal's post, probably should have quoted it....

     
  16. Asu

    Asu THD Team THD Team Forum Moderator

    Messages:
    1,578
    he's aware.
     
  17. atthetta

    atthetta Builder Stabber

    Messages:
    77
    Then why post?

    If a knight is getting slammed by water arrows and bombs then he's probably a bad knight to begin with, or the opposing archer's are really good (good aim, using water arrows effectively). Regardless, a team needs good builders to mitigate archers, including water arrows and even water bombs.

    Complaining about the function of water arrows/bombs doesn't help. It just admits that you're a bad player.

    What, exactly, is wrong with water arrows/bombs right now? They're fine, working as intended...so it seems.
     
  18. Asu

    Asu THD Team THD Team Forum Moderator

    Messages:
    1,578
    that.

    you will get stun if the arrow or the bomb directly hits you. Period.
    If you're fighting against another knight and a water arrow falls out of nowhere you don't have time to dodge it. you don't focus on things like that, because all other annoyances are generally handled by your sheild as long you handle it right and you get vulnerable when you jab/slash, and it should stay so.

    builders can't build structures everywhere in the battlefield to save you from water.

    Complaining about not getting a sequel to KAG doesn't help.

    sorry o overlord, please teach us how to dodge water arrows

    It's not because something works as intended that it's not overpowered
     
  19. an_obamanation

    an_obamanation The boss Donator

    Messages:
    392
    I'm sorry that i'm a "bad player" because there's a 20 coin item that can tie my arms behind my back for 2 seconds and prevent me in any way from reacting to anything or anyone.



     
    BarsukEughen555, Asu and kedram like this.
  20. Fuzzle

    Fuzzle Grand Grumbler

    Messages:
    296
    Water bombs and arrows do not work as intended. Here's the reasons why:
    • Tiles do not block splashes. If tiles did block splashes, it'd create some rather inconsistent behaviour if not implemented correctly. Water bombs and arrows (especially arrows) often explode inside blocks: The splash could be absorbed (as an example, this often happens with bombs and bomb arrows). Also, a splash on the corner of a tile could remove ~180 degrees from the explosion radius (even at the tip).
    • Water splashes are squared - not circular.
    Even if something works as the developers intended it doesn't mean it can't be improved.
    Otherwise there wouldn't be any need for this subforum.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2017