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Tell me im wrong (noob thread)

Discussion in 'Balance' started by Shambls, Dec 30, 2013.

  1. unclearimage

    unclearimage Builder Stabber

    Messages:
    23
    It's amazing how unbelievably unbalanced this game is
    It blows my mind how OP knights are
    It simply amazes me how the player base blindly condones such shitty game design.
     
    8x likes this.
  2. Kouji

    Kouji Cold, Uncaring, Sadistic, Evil and Cruel Meanie Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. MOLEing Over Large Estates - [MOLE]
    2. REKINS OF SEAS: Super Crew of Ultimate Havoking 2: Return of King of KAG: Chapter 420blazeit - REKIN

    Messages:
    2,910
    If you want to say knights are OP or the game is unbalanced, then do the following:
    1. State why they are op instead just saying they are OP. At this point all I can only believe that you are flame-baiting just get people mad especially considering your last statement.
    2. If you do decide to state about the OP-ness of Knights, do so in this thread: https://forum.kag2d.com/threads/nerf-knights.16102/
    If you decide to just go on and continue without any actual reasons explaining how, I'll have to delete your posts and give you a warning.

    As for everyone else, please ignore his post for now because this is just going to end up with people on either sides simply arguing again making no progress and having as Contrary said, another shitty thread. Let's try to leave discussion centered around mainly how to make the game easier for new players to learn. This of course does involve bring up mechanics and explaining how they work and then discussing how new players could learn to do them, but it does not mean talking about balance. We have plenty of threads for that.
     
  3. Shadowofgold

    Shadowofgold Haxor

    Messages:
    98
    ohai fellow troper


    I think everyone can agree on the few basic things of
    Knights need to be less game-changing
    Archers need to have more than mobility and bomb/fire arrows to their name


    In my opinion, I think Archers need some way of being more threatening to Knights. At the moment, it takes a good four arrows to take one out, and if they have their shield up you can only hurt them if you get close.. which would be stupid, since the Knight can use one slash to take out an Archer. This means that unless there are good knights on your team, Archers are borderline useless unless they have mad skills. I'm going to disregard pros and speak on an even playing field of average players. Most people can't pull off any surprise stomp followed by legolas shot stuff to kill a Knight, while most everyone can understand 'light keg, drop keg, slash people nearby.'


    I also think buildings should be more... useful. I know this has been very debatable, but defense should hold more value than it does right now. Maybe not to the point where it's better than offense, but there should be a point where a constant assault doesn't almost always equal a win.

    I honestly have no idea how these things can be balanced out, I'm not a game designer, but I think they are problems.


    EDIT: And I got ninja'd by a 'dont talk about balance' post. Oops.
     
  4. Shambls

    Shambls Tree Planter

    Messages:
    65
    This was super helpful thanks.

    where do I find these clans? Is the forums the best place?
    Unfortunately I don't feel I am a top tier builder just yet but I think being able to contact those top tier people would be very informative.

    I love this stuff. This is what I'm talking about for an offensive builder (or defense). Yes your chances of winning are less but at least you have a chance. A little bit of skill and finesse and your killing knights that's all I want. obviously this is very situational and the skill of the knights is questionable but it is still great.

    Archers, archers, archers, you can already tell from some of the previous posts that there are some very passionate archers in KAG community. I don't think they are a horrible class I just wish they could be more annoying i guess. As stated before making them as powerful as a knight would be ridiculous so maybe the best route would be give them more CC. Off the top of my head like, caltrops, (Its a ninja weapon used to impede movement( archers are basically ninjas already :D)) throw them down knights are slower can't jump as high making them an easier target for everyone. Maybe a molotov cocktailesque weapon. I know they have the fire arrow but this would be more close range aoe weapon. I'll check and see put it in the suggestions.
     
    hierbo, -Tj-, Sir_Walter and 2 others like this.
  5. Gurin

    Gurin Stop That! Global Moderator Donator Tester

    Messages:
    358
    Yeah, in Groups > Clans is where you can browse the clans and or social groups. To get in-touch with them I think IRC (Internet Relay Chat) is the best choice, you can talk how much you want, and it's free.

    Or you can just find them in-game, or just send him/her a pm. Really, it's your choice.
     
  6. Shambls

    Shambls Tree Planter

    Messages:
    65
    thanks for the quick reply ill do that
     
  7. 101i

    101i Haxor Forum Moderator Tester

    Messages:
    445
    Archer stomp.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. ShnitzelKiller

    ShnitzelKiller Haxor

    Messages:
    590
    No? A skilled knight is matched by other knights. Not by some camping archer with a dedicated "kill nearby knights" button.
     
  9. 101i

    101i Haxor Forum Moderator Tester

    Messages:
    445
    For those whom played classic understand that builders and archer have ways of killing knights.
    It should come down to knight are the only thing that beats knights. Boulders, Collapses, Spikes and other useful tools deal with knights.

    Also, Builders are more useful then building defences. BATTLE Builders. (Stoning doors, Ladderering, Catapult/Ballista using, Wood spam next to their base then lighting it on fire :3(My personal favourite)
    Once more people play KAG they will develop their own play style and work out many different stratergies like we did back in the good old classic days.
     
    epenow likes this.
  10. Kouji

    Kouji Cold, Uncaring, Sadistic, Evil and Cruel Meanie Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. MOLEing Over Large Estates - [MOLE]
    2. REKINS OF SEAS: Super Crew of Ultimate Havoking 2: Return of King of KAG: Chapter 420blazeit - REKIN

    Messages:
    2,910
    Posts moved to the thread I previously stated.
     
    FuzzyBlueBaron likes this.
  11. 8x

    8x Elimination Et Choix Traduisant la Realité Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    1,325
    That's ok, but it would be way more helpful if you wrote the reasons your opinion is based on (plus I personally want ot hear your thoughts about it).

    From my opinion, making stuns a bit longer and to happen pretty often can avoid those lone-killers to take a whole team twice in a row or more, so as to make some balance I believe, but the sheer amount of stuns in general, as knight, as builder and as archer, makes the gameplay more frustrating. The first hit you receive means almost a secure death in a face to face lance.

    Eventhough it looks weird, archers and builders are better in terms of balance, and if you control them good (this needs more than a couple of weeks), you can be decisive (mainly as builder and archer; as knight you could be more decisive like until 1 month ago). The main problem I see with the latest balance changes, if that's an appropiate name for them, is that they make the game more begginer friendly, and experienced and skilled players get it harder to make a gret performance as before, because begginers take a bigger part of the pie than they should.

    sry if going off-topic, this thread seems pretty open.
     
  12. unclearimage

    unclearimage Builder Stabber

    Messages:
    23
    Forum Mod has gone and deleted my posts, not even going to bother. There's no freedom of speech, or ability to express opinions here.
    Screw it.
     
  13. Shambls

    Shambls Tree Planter

    Messages:
    65
    Actually they didn't delete it but just moved it to nerf knight thread in balance.

    also you have freedom of speech the problem is your just ranting. Meaning your just saying a bunch of negative things without backing it up. I still don't like knight as a class but that's how this game is designed they are a necessary evil in order to win the game based on objectives.

    I'm just going to assume you like playing either archers or builders because if you played a knight I don't think you would have any complaints. When I first started this thread it was basically to try and understand how you deal with knights cause in all seriousness this is a knightcentric (I like making words) game.

    On that note I kinda wish that shields had durability. So say for example you've pumped 15 arrows into a guys shield it would break. Mostly I want this so I can just drill a knights shield then shortly after drill the knight :). Cause if you put in the work you should get some kind of results I figure. I know this is not realistic cause why would a knight even think of blocking a builder so I'll just have to settle for drilling the knight.
     
    UnnamedPlayer and 101i like this.
  14. Kouji

    Kouji Cold, Uncaring, Sadistic, Evil and Cruel Meanie Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator Tester
    1. MOLEing Over Large Estates - [MOLE]
    2. REKINS OF SEAS: Super Crew of Ultimate Havoking 2: Return of King of KAG: Chapter 420blazeit - REKIN

    Messages:
    2,910
    Clearly you can't be assed to read. Yeah, I totally deleted your posts, took away your ability to express your thoughts and express your opinions by simply moving them to a more relevant thread. I feel so bad.
    doge.png
    Anyways, please feel free to continue making baseless conjectures without evidence. You may find out that your statement may become true and you might actually have something to complain about.
     
    Rubixxcube and 101i like this.
  15. Invaders

    Invaders Shark Slayer

    Messages:
    249
    Isn't that the way it should be?
    Quality over quantity is better than spam over skill.
     
    101i likes this.
  16. Rubixxcube

    Rubixxcube Bison Rider

    Messages:
    66
    It's not a bad idea, I just don't know how the damage values would be set for that. Would a bomb break a shield? I feel like it would actually be a huge nerf, because while shields are pretty shit at blocking slashes anyway, they're still used for quite a lot of utility. You glide using them, you slide using them, and most importantly, you block bombs with them. If a single bomb broke a shield, or even three, then how badly would that fuck them up? Would bombspam be a legit tactic for getting rid of shields? If bombs don't, then you could just send a legion of builders with your knights to get rid of shields and then the knights to ez them? Or even worse, builders would be sent out instead of knights to get rid of their shields, archers could pick them off, and then the builders could just tear into the enemy base. Could a shield be replenished? Would archerspam be as bad of a problem as it was in Classic? Worst case scenario, knights are made completely obsolete.

    I just feel that there are too many downsides to this idea to warrant making them softer for builders. Like I said, it's not a bad idea at all, it just raises a LOT of questions for me.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2014
  17. Shambls

    Shambls Tree Planter

    Messages:
    65
    This is a bit vague but I'm going to assume you mean that a knight one shot requires more skill than a archer multiple shots. Now this is purely an assumption so anything I draw from this idea really can't blow back on you.

    Knights do have a higher skill based fighting system then an archer yes that's a fact but that's not to say there is no skill required to be an archer. I would argue you have to have more skill to be an archer and more dedicated. The reason being everything is stacked against the archer.

    -Grappling hook: you mess up once your basically dead.
    -Glider shield: fall from any distance unharmed.

    -Shield-less: anything and everything kills you
    -Shield: protected from everything but Kegs and cata/balista (or can they block cata/balista)

    -Your main opponent has a shield which negates, potenially, all your damage (does it block bomb arrows too?)
    -An archer is seen more as an annoyance then a threat

    -archers HAVE to be smart about positioning
    -Knights go where they please

    So I kinda feel that archers have been painted into a bit of a corner. They spam arrows cause they don't have much in the way of options as a class. Obviously there are those crafty archer that Tarzan there way to your tower and drop boulders on your face (which is awesome). I would love to see more stuff like that. I still think you need more skill to be a good archer versus a good knight. Again this is all based on assumption. :P
     
    hierbo likes this.
  18. 101i

    101i Haxor Forum Moderator Tester

    Messages:
    445
    The truth is that people haven't discovered how to use archer as efficient as knight. Knight is an easy class to use and master, archer is easier to use but harder to master.Oh and builder is even easier than archer but is so undiscovered right now.
    Edit: Removed the last few sentences.
     
    epenow likes this.
  19. Rubixxcube

    Rubixxcube Bison Rider

    Messages:
    66
    Fixed a tiny bit of grammar just because I'm a g-nazi.


    Okay, I have an issue with this entire post. This seems to be made with the argument that the main enemy of the archers is the knight. This is not the case. Archers are tactical. They're support. They're supposed to monkey their way in, do some damage, fuck with the other base, and generally just make things more difficult for the other team. They are not made to fight knights. Maybe hurt them and slow them down, yes. Not fight them. They both take an equal amount of skill, obviously in my personal opinion, but they have different niches. Knights push, archers aid, builders build (upon the entrances created by the other two.)

    Knights are supposed to fight other knights. If a builder or archer gets in the way, they're a free +1.


    Please explain what you mean instead of just stating opinions. I've already explained how these classes are not that simple, so if you're going to go the other way, explain why my argument is invalid. Please don't just say "iz juss ez-r dude i plai so much"
     
  20. Shambls

    Shambls Tree Planter

    Messages:
    65
    In no way would a shield be flimsy if anything like this happened because bomb jumping is large part of what makes a knight so deadly. So the shield could take multiple bomb hits (off the top of my head) like ten. I don't play much knight so I don't even know if that number is even realistic. This wouldn't actually change game play much. I think this would only effect super knights that kill everyone. so at some point it forces them to get a new shield which i assume you would get at a warrior shop, or the spawn. The only reason I like this idea is because if your a good archer you rewarded by at least reducing the durability of the knights shield.

    I don't think swords would reduce durability cause if your blocking a double slash your basically dead anyway.

    After mentioning all that in a backwards way this would promote spawn camping. meh just an idea.