The Problem

Doors, they work great

On second thought, we should be able to place a simple wooden block - easier than stone to aquire and place, but can be destroyed by knights

 

So you're saying that once a block is damaged, it's fucked? That's stupid. Basically, as soon as a tower is damaged, you might as well just collapse it because you can't repair it...

I'm failing to see how this is gonna balance the game at all.

Basically what I'm saying is that if you just wanna play a game where you have buildings that protect you, but you would rather go running in with guns blazing and kill anyone in your path, go play Gang Garrison. You are obviously playing the wrong game here. KAG isn't about raking in the kills and trying not to die, it's about WORKING WITH YOUR TEAM to create a defense that will hold off the enemy, while at the same time pressing forward to destroy them.

If you take away the ability to repair structures, you take away the ability to be defensive. Therefore, you completely shit on the spirit of the game's teamwork centric design.

 

Since everyone is going on a nerf hype. I'd say we nerf knight shields and implementing a break system, there's simply no way a shield should survive that many bombs.

 

You cannot repair a block that is connected to a building currently under attack (or place blocks) So if a builder is beating on the wall you cannot repair any of the blocks in the wall (or maybe just around the block?). Once the attackers have been driven off you can repair the wall

This means MORE teamwork because you have to work with your knights/archers and drive off the attackers and then repair the wall as opposed to just repairing any damage they do mindlessly

 

Your suggestions still sound dull and despicable, especially when such a severe nerf is forced upon offensive structures. As I'm playing as a builder, I'd expect some kind of need of my existence in battle. In fact, due to the fact we builders can repair our bases, this will force us to aid our team in battle instead of hogging resources. When you remove the ability to repair buildings during battle, you remove the substantial tenet of quality. To round things up, I'd prefer a team of builders to work on one project and constantly showing up for repairs, instead of spamming useless towers and turning the battle field into an obstacle course.

 

See, I don't like this. More often than not I'm teamed up with far less experienced teammates, and a certain tower design could make or break a game. Fellow knights will throw themselves into a free-for-all and kill themselves, and the Repair-From-Behind tower would become effectively useless.

Trust me, play a couple games solely as a builder with a less than experienced team. Then, when you have a tower design that is easily repaired under fire, don't allow yourself to fix it. Go on with that handicap for the rest of the match.

I can't imagine it would work out too well...

 

So... How do you suggest to counter defenses if they can just be easily repaired all the time.

 

It's just hilarious to see 4 towers of different shapes and sizes being erected during build phase, and it's even more hysterical to see all of them unfinished. Honestly, people can't see to work together in a game like this, and in any other game really... However, if KAG were to follow Verdant's whiny whimsical ideas, we'd be compiled into many factors that would force tedious gameplay on builders while adding to a whole new issue of teamwork and proper structuring.

How would you suggest to counter a castle siege on the defensive side if you can't repair a structure? You're thinking scripted gameplay or chucky cheese's dodge ball castle with kiddy little rules. If you're on a ship being attacked by enemy naval troops, don't tell me you're going to rock yourself in a dark corner while letting the water flood the chambers because "it's too dangerous". No.. You'd fix it by adding more wood to the damaged areas while your comrades pump out the water and that is teamwork. You're only thinking about defense on the knight's side, thus you should really be less bias.

 

Honestly, if we nerf buildings and builders, why not just take the easy route and have prefab structures? Just things with a bomb shop and catapult nest on top, or one with an arrow shop and an archer nest. You just select it from a menu and place it on the battlefield...

Frankly, when I heard about this game, I assumed that's what they meant when they said, "building," was a major part of the game. Until I played and saw how extraordinary it was to have such freedom to build, maintain, repair, and add-on to buildings built from scratch.

I just don't think that anything so drastic as disallowing repairs to be made on a building under attack, inability to place stone underground, etc. would severely hinder the usefulness (or even the use period) of builders. If we were to make all these changes, fuck, might as well just remove the builder all together.

 

I agree, if KAG's developers can't seem to please anyone with the "balance issues", why would they make a game that allows building in the first place? In the end we'd all have to remodel our user menu to tell people notches don't work anymore, while completely derailing KAG'S gameplay from the intended original. As much as I detest knights throwing bombs at my towers, I'd never expect people to go as far as removing aspects of the game like team bridges. None the less, most experience builders would tell their apprentices to not build vertical ladders on their castle walls knowing players on the other side can exploit it for their own sake. As for door notches, I'd say keep them. Most of the time during an average gameplay, offensive builders tend to build their team's vertical bridges and if those doors are destroyed, their team gets a gaping notch that they can use to their advantage.

 

They would still work because of the bridge i guess

 

Lets face it, builders are overpowered, This nerf will NOT kill them, Instead it will force the contruction of buildings that can stand up to siege longer.
You honestly drastically overexaggerate here. This is a much smaller nerf than you make it out to be. You can still repair, you just need to drive the defenders away, if only for a moment, while you repair.
Secondly, I cannot believe you suggested we remove builders, thats just stupid.
Thirdly, Not being able to place stone underground means you cannot just wall a passage off, making it completely impenetrable (unless you want to spend 5 minutes clearing out what the builder took all of 20 seconds to place, did I mention he can just repair and extend the wall?)
</br>--- merged: Feb 29, 2012 1:11 AM ---</br>

How do you counter a siege when you cannot repair? Hmm... lemmi think
1. Archers, like, shooting people with arrows
2. Siege equipment
3. Jump down and kill the buggers attacking you

As for your ship metaphor, are you seriously going to be slotting a perfectly made piece of wood to neatly fill up every cannon hole they put in your hull, instantaneously fixing any damage caused? because that's what you do in KAG. Lets be serious a piece of wood boarded over a hole does not really do much for a ship taking water

However you have given me another idea, limited repair - when a peice of stone is damaged and repaired it is repaired to half way between full health and its previous damage level (minimum of 1 health level less). therefore continued repairs eventually become useless and to properly repair the castle you would have to actively replace the stone

 

I was being sarcastic in suggesting removal of my favorite class.

Be real dude. The buildings that can stand up to siege longer = 10 stone wide x 20+ stone tall solid walls with trap bridges and ladders. If you suggest we remove repairing while a building is under attack, that is a major handicap to the builder class. As I said, have you played a game as the sole builder who has the most experience, the rest of the team is either playing as an archer shooting at the horizon, a builder Minecrafting in the backfield, or a knight mindlessly spamming the jab attack, being killed over and over? That ability to repair essential structures on the fly is imperative. In games like that, it's generally the other team stacking themselves because they know who to play with, so the new guys are all fucking around and dying over and over and over, losing precious spawn tickets and the game itself. The fact that I can quickly and easily replace a block that was damaged/destroyed saves our team that much time and allows our knights to push them back that much farther. Much smaller nerf than I'm making it out to be? Next time you're getting crushed by a catapult, let them take your wall/tower out. Bombs destroying your spike pit? Oh well, looks like it's fucked. Trap bridges, walls, team doors, ANYTHING. Can't touch any of it if you're being attacked. Oh well! Might as well just stand in the doorway and let the other team come strolling in, hand over the flag and let them walk out.

That's also the whole reason I hate tunnels. I hate tunnels because no one ever does a tunnel RIGHT. If a person on MY team starts digging a tunnel without proper defensive measures taken, I'll wall it up. So, again, you're suggesting that I just allow the other more skilled team to just steamroll over us because I can't place blocks underground?

I'm sorry, I'll rarely say that someone's idea is just wrong, but this is just WRONG.

It's a VIDEO GAME. If the developers decide to metaphorically tie one hand behind the builder's back, what the point in playing as a builder? Can't restore your structures because the other team is obsessed with pushing? Well, looks like you're shit out of luck then! Then the next thing you know, some kid who is pissed that he can't spawn anymore places a vote for next map, and then the whole cycle restarts.

Are you entirely sure you've been playing for a while? Or are you the type who just plays as a knight and expects to cut through stone blocks like butter?

Back on the whole not being able to place stone underground thing... So spike pits would OFFICIALLY be obsolete, because as soon as a knight falls into one, he'll just immediately start tunneling out, along with the fact that spikes are stone and won't be able to be placed, since it's technically underground. A noob tunnel goes from behind my base all the way to the front gates of the enemy base, giving them the upper hand because we can't put up any kind of effective defenses. So that's out. Removing the dirt and replacing it with stone for your towers/structures/walls/etc are out. Digging beneath a tower will be a cinch now because the builders can't wall up the small tunnel dug under a wall or tower.

Have you really even thought this through? All the factors and aspects of the games that are officially ruined by your ideas?

 

He doesn't. It is simply a much more severe nerf than you realize. Being unable to repair structures that are attacked forces the builder to change to knight or archer to help repel the attack - if his teammates alone were able to repel attack it wouldn't even have come this far.
Now imagine this worked out and the team successfully repelled the attack.
-> player changes back to builder to finally repair -> team is short-handed again -> enemies will overwhelm the team and attack the building again -> player is forced to change from builder to a fighting class to be able to repel the attack -> attack might be repelled -> player changes back to builder -> team is short-handed again -> etc.

His suggestion to remove builders may have been sarcastic, but considering your idea of making structures under attack unrepairable for the time being it is not really far-fetched.

 

The ability to instantly repair structures while they are under attack is just stupid.
I mean, I have had games where 2 builders have held a building almost indefinatly? Why? They repaired everything we did to the building, current methods of tower destruction are so slow compared to how quickly these things are repaired. This nerf would be about making buildings not immortal with a couple of decent builders, which is the problem presented in this thread which is defence is too good at the moment.

"So, again, you're suggesting that I just allow the other more skilled team to just steamroll over us"
Whats wrong with this sentence. Holy crap, its suggesting that the more skilled team shouldn't be allowed to WIN the game? If your team is full of herpderps, well, that sucks, I feel for you, but it happens to everyone. Its a team game, your not supposed to be able to win it alone.

In terms of the other team obsessed with pushing I personally think more options for actively defending (killing attackers) are needed rather than passive defence (continously repairs a wall) are in order.

Have I been playing for a while? Depends how you count 3 months or so. Am I the type that plays knight? Nope, knights bore me, Builder and occasinally archer for me.

In your paragraph about the stone not being to be placed underground ruining spike pits - you have a good point, in this case I retract my argument about not being able to place stone blocks underground. However the issue of builders holing themselves up underground and causing havoc while being unable to be reached still causes problems, but it is not the main issue here - the repairing is.

As for my ideas "officially ruining" aspects of the game, there is a reason I am posting on a public discussion forum, your feedback has been invaluable (especially concerning the above point). However I still see no way that removal of repair under attack ruins any aspects of the game, rather it amplifies some.

I may note that my suggestion involved that the VERY moment you no longer have a builder or catapult beating on the structure you may repair as normal - knights banging thier swords on stone do nothing to hinder repairs.
</br>--- merged: Feb 29, 2012 1:52 AM ---</br>

I seriously believe builders need to be able to take a more active role in base defence.
On a second point, whats the problem with builders changing to archer/knight to help with the defence? Thats just stratagy - adaption to the situation at hand, the sitation being more manpower is needed, hopefully that will not be an issue if the above point is addressed.
Lastly I really do not see how this is far fetched, it is a change to promote more active gameplay and allow for realistic taking of towers, which I may add do not instantly die from an attack. Maybe in return for this nerf to repairing stone blocks take longer to destroy, this way the defence has time to drive the enemy away.

 

Two builders repairing a structure indefinitely is fucking impossible. They will eventually run out of resources and will have to flee. Your argument suggests that we builders don't have to do ANY kind of work to be able to repair our structures, like resources fly out of our asses whenever we feel like farting. Builders have to mine for resources, which is time consuming, build a decent structure that is able to be repaired and will hold off attackers, which is time consuming, and need to be able to improvise in certain situations, which is also time consuming. Why should I be forced to run back to a spawn point, switch to a knight, buy bombs, run all the way back, kill the attackers, and then run all the way back to go builder again only to have MAYBE 15 seconds to repair extensive damage? That is UNBALANCED.

Also, because I have a few teammates who don't want to work as a team, would rather do their own thing and make a stupid fucking tunnel that puts us in danger, the other team should be able to take full advantage of this? I can't stop him myself? I can't provide defense for my team? Even IF the other team isn't more skilled, a derp tunnel will fucking ruin a game for ANYONE. Of course the more skilled team is going to win, but we're talking SKILL, not the other teams LACK thereof. You're suggesting that a few experienced players surrounded by morons shouldn't be able to fix structures on the fly, shouldn't be able to plug up the tunnel that 2 or 3 F2P noobs dug out, etc. Even if the entire other team is full of noobs, a terrible tunnel or inability to fix something could easily allow a team of noobs to roll over on a team of experienced players.

The keyword in all of your arguments are this: CURRENT. The CURRENT methods... Other forms of siege equipment are being introduced, wooden structures are being introduce, fire, demolition shops and powder kegs... All of which will make destruction of towers much easier. Why are you suggesting that we make it even MORE difficult for builders, especially with all the anti-building arsenal that you kids are gonna be getting?

 

I would like to point out a technique I have seen many builders employ. They wait for the enemy builder destroying the stone block to have nearly finished destroying it, then with one stroke finish the job instead (last hit the stone block so to speak) and immediatly replace the block. This gives them essentially unlimited stone to repair with.
If running back to base is such an issue, build bomb shops nearby and have an outpost. The unmoving natural spawn point is supposed to provide a disadvantage to defence further up into the field until you get outposts
Having 15 seconds to repair the defence means 2 things
1. Prevents turtling, which is honestly boring for both sides (although you may disagree, not sure you will however)
2. If your team can only hold the enemy off for the mere 15 seconds it takes for them to respawn and run back to the front line then it means that your team is on the defensive. The way this game should be played (imo, I think you might agree) is that to win you push through the enemy defenses and take their flag, thus an attacking team should be able to slowly push the defenders back and as I have stated with half compatant builders this is near impossible. If you want more time to repair your defences push the enemy back to THEIR tower.

Quoting the OP who's sentiments I share "For KAG to be fun when played between good teams, building needs to be nerfed."

I also point out once again I have retracted my argument for removing the ability to place stone blocks underground.

 

Now you're tipping the strategy scale towards the attacking side, which defeats the purpose of most people who post in this thread, balancing. Generally speaking, people here want a 50/50 chance of both defensive and offensive tactics to be viable for the team's success. It's not about one team breaking down the defensive side, it's about both how different sides are able to lead to the breaking point of a defensive or offensive player.

I got to say, you're judging the builder class just on one situation that happens only in certain conditions. However, turtle strategies don't work too well if the offensive builder has knights to hug the block ( Knights can instantly move in, when the turtle builder picks up that stone) or knights that have bombs ( Blow up weak blocks ). Also you would need resources to repair blocks, which balances things out by disabling the defensive builders, once their resources are drained.

 

On the contrary. Currently the strategy scale is heavily towards defence, so while this is tipping the strategy scale towards the attacking side it is only to balance it out to this 50/50 ratio. That being said there does need to be more of a way to turn a defence into an offense, keep in mind this would work both ways as the enemy team can apply the same tactics to turn their defence into their offence. While this game is not about one side breaking down defence it is not about one team huddling in a tower all game either.

 

Nope, "slowly pushing the defensive side" isn't 50/50. 50/50 scales would imply that the defensive side and the offensive side will form a convergent boundary in battle that will either lead to the break down of each side DEPENDING on the strategy and skills of each side.