The Problem

That both teams have an ability is not indicative of a well balanced game, even if this wasn't class based. As always, it's a question of mechanics. Having both sides overpowered is not ok just because the teams are balanced (and given this game has symmetrical maps and exactly the same classes on each side the team balance will only ever depend on the players).

Obvious compromise: allow some tiles to be laid instantly, stagger others. You do raise a good point that offensive builders are not necessarily the problem, it's defensive ones that are.

On most servers I can easily knock up a strong tower during the build phase. What often slows me down is other builders getting in the way. From playing the game I'd say instances of builders co-operating well is less common than builders working well together. Unless you are on voice with some friends it's pretty impossible to communicate your ideas effectively.

I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea of allowing builders to break blocks a little bit faster. I think when a builder does go forward it creates a very interesting scenario for both attackers and defenders.

I'm in favour of that. Perhaps introduce some balance system? Could be quite hard to engineer that effectively but I reckon it's possible.

 

In my opinion, defensive builders should be left the way they are. At least we can come to a conclusion that builders should get some offensive boost in terms of "destroying" buildings. As for the skybridges, there was an implementation to prevent such structures from happening but it got removed due to it's "inconveniences".

 

Lol I'm pretty sure the game devs aren't trying to fuck with us just for the hell of it Spoolooni. I wand skybridges gone but if it messes up the rest of the game it isn't worth it. My only conclusion from this is that there is too much stalemate in this game atm (which is why I don't bother with regular CTF that doesn't have a spawn limit) and the most likely cause atm is buildings.

 

How does that even relate to anything I said? Anyways, personally unit count prevents games from lasting too long while capture the flag with unlimited spawn may prolong the game. It's about decisions and compromising with factors. For the most part, the only stalemates that happen is when I'm in overcrowded servers.

 

That's very true. I'm not sure how many were designed with this game in mind. As for what I said, I thought you were suggesting that "inconveniences" was just an excuse, but nevermind, guess it got lost in translation.

 

Eh, I quote Inconveniences because I didn't know what they were but people asked for the limit to be removed.

 

I would agree on the building delay is required. It's prefectly fine to build without delay before the game starts, but just seeing workers instantly repairing entire wall segments as they being hit by bombs and a catapult, while another worker chews that very wall's foundation from inside like a rat, and nobody can stop him (since repair requires 1 click and breaking require more than 5 seconds of hitting by single worker, and breaking grands more stone than required to repair), makes me dizzy.

Since catapults are not always a viable option (sometimes there's just not enough wood, range is limited and countering is not that hard) and withering the wall is risky and suicidal, most people just prefer to tunnel for the flag, which is also lame in my opinion. Tunneling to raze the tower down seems viable, but not just tunneling into enemy camp, blocking any countermeasure attempts with the same insta-stone, this just seems disturbing and game-breaking all-over strategy. Instant ladders, instant mid-forts also makes collaborative building meaningless, since one builder can punch a wall up in mere seconds.

All of it calls for more siege engines and a delay on building the same type of block in the game process. Of course these delays must depend on the block type and be adjustable, but they're certainly required.

 

Builder is meant to be able to repair, If repairing was nerfed, no-one would bother to repair towers. I seen in some matches, builders dont even attempt to try to repair. Putting a delay on the rate of repairing blocks, would equal a bad idea, because that would take one less thing away from a builder specializations. Towers can be taken down rather quickly if you coordinate with your team, and not just go at a tower by your self.

 

I don't want a timer to place blocks, that would just honestly hinder building far too much.
But having to place a stone block over the damaged stone multiple times sounds to repair is a good idea. It'd nerf entombing and repairing structure while on assault.. 2 builders breaking stone would win 1 builder repairing stone.

 

Your right, you have to dig stone, and there is not always stone near the tower. But the difference is that the defence builder is protected by the tower, whereas the offensive builder are constantly in danger.

Nerfing building sound a really bad idea, I've already say that. I more for nerfing repairing, or buffing destruction.

And entombing builder, especially in underground, are really annoying, since they got generally, at least 250 stones.

 

Ok, Sky Bridges, overlooked as an underused tactic, but it really isn't. Quite frankly every server I go to at least consist of a builder half assing a skybridge right from the back. Worst part, when other people try taking it down, the blocks get glitched up leaving this nice invincible line of 1-unit abomination. A nerf has to happen sooner or later, in fact, I wouldn't even call it a nerf, more like a 'fix" of physics.

 

I love how everyone STILL thinks that the builders/building is an issue.

I'm serious when I say that archers haven't been nerfed enough. There's nothing more fucking aggravating than when you're playing a small 4vs4 games (maybe less), the other team has a tall structure and they are ALL archers.

Archers have machine guns right now. The weakest shot they can make takes 1 heart away from an armored knight. ARMORED. "Just dig underneath." How the fuck are you supposed to dig underneath the one tower they occupy when they can hit you before they're even in your FOV? This shit is ridiculous. Today I have been the most angry at this game that I ever have been. NUMEROUS games where archers camped and just spammed the FUCK out of their arrows.

You all can whine and cry about your third level zooms and all that other bullshit, but you're still 10x stronger than the other 2 classes, and it's fucking ridiculous. How is it possible that an archer can beat a knight in CQC? Doesn't that defeat the whole Rock Paper Scissors idea behind this game? It's just like a pair of scissors breaking while trying to cut through paper; it doesn't happen. And those of you who have played with me before; I'm no slouch in this game. I have taken a lot of time to practice and at least become adequate... But when I lose to an archer who has only been playing for 3-5 days while they're running away from me constantly firing, isn't there a problem?
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Also, this. This is probably the best solution. There's nothing more aggravating than having 2-3 builders trying to dig out 1 entombed builder, but they're able to INSTANTLY repair a block. Especially if they continue to tunnel away from the entombment, they'll always have materials. Same with instant repair while under assault. I like this tactic FAR more than making it an even more tedious practice to build things.

 

New players, yes, they tend to not to care about repairing. But since people realize the whole meaning of walls-and-towers zone control and cover value, towers can't be brought down so easily. That's what makes tomb demolition the most viable compared to bomb spamming and catapults - it's a dangerous action, but when you're in, barely anyone can reach you.

Besides, yes, continuous repairing might solve the problem. Since there's 7 stages of Castle Wall, intact and 6 damaged stages, and Wall block requires 10 stone to be built, then his repairs must worth 1-1-1 (minor damage) and 2-2-2 (major damage) with each click repairing the current stage of damage. single hit damage will require only 1 stone to repair and maximum repair for near-destroyed block to full health will require 8 stone. That would make much more sense.

Can't add much to it. Let's us just start with Ballistas. I hope it will be a normal counter to catapults, since I believe currently archer's arrows destroys catapults too fast. Killing builder, sure, but destroying the catapult is strange. Also, Boulder looks very weird. I don't think we usually build Masonry Workshops to just make a random chunk of rock. Boulders must look like a roughly rounded Ball of pure stone, but not like an egg made of random crap right from the ground. So it's dynamics would be obvious. Also it's easily dumpered by a single target and easily to being thrown wrong. I think it's needs additional weight, so it will thrown with lower initial speed, but could acquire that speed on said slopes and falls and really smash people's up. That would require to increase it's Stone worth of course.

Can't agree overall. Archers are tricky class to play unlike Fighters. It's requires some control to beat the Fighter in direct contact. Cutting it short, it's a bad habit of many to judge anything by their best features, ignoring their worst. Besides, there's no Rock-Paper-Scissors scheme in KAG. Every class counters another in his own way, and it's decided by the skill to see whether you can or can't defeat them. Every class has it's defensive and offensive capabilities. Fighters are mostly offensive, Archers are mostly defensive and Builders is mostly Utility. IN you case it's not the archers who counters you, but the tower that you can't get rid off. All classes has the same FoV and the chance to hit you with blind shot is very miserable. Covering the Builder who can demolish the tower is easy with shield-gliding over him all the way forward. When it's commences, archers can't do anything to prevent it, and you can demolish it even without losing anyone under rubbles. When there's no more tower, archers are losing their safe-attack advantage. In the open, archer can be killed even by a Builder.

I've never seen archers being a major sting. It's more like Fighters, who just start to flood over the battlefield, which is as well very frustrating, but it's fine as they're countered properly and not being simply fed by kills.

 

Well, it's not like good buildings appear in the map.
They need to be built, obviously.

but not every building is safe, and if a good Builder(s) manages to build an effective and strong fortress, than he deserves to have a good defense.

Buildings are not overpowered.
It's like saying "good players are overpowered". A building is hard to destroy if it's built well.

 

Erm? But Contrary said that is about SKILLED players and only about them so I don't see your point.
Newbies and noobs are completely different level and they really don't have problems with balance.

 

It doesn't matter who plays the game and whatever falls under your arrogant statement, because balancing issues falls under the criteria of the entire game played by a large community filled with a mixture of professional players and new players. Nonetheless, your ad hominem is a little unneeded.

 

Haven't read the whole thread, but I think one other way to circumvent buildings being overpowered is to make builders only available during build-time. Or make it possible to limit the number of builders-per-team after build-time. This would also make the build-time more important and less of a "let's get this over with already" time that you start to feel after playing a few too many rounds.