The Problem

@Contrary:
My comments were not aimed at you or any one person or group, you did not say "5 seconds" however someone else did, Nor did I say that you had been the one that had been biased against small servers with the build delay, I was summarizing what everyone said not blaming or otherwise talking about you specifically.

As clarification to what I ment Archers in the open can take out entrenched archers with the help of knights and their shields, furthermore how long is the longest you've ever seen one archer last in a tower without a well aimed snipe or a collapse?

The use of ladders I showed incorporates the theme that they aren't biased, that team trapdoors can become non-team biased with one hit from a knight. Using trapdoors as ladders is a players decision, any one player should be able to decide for his/herself if it is a good/correct/viable use of that block. What everyone is suggesting is like if stone couldn't be built higher than 8 blocks because it gives builders an advantage and knights cant bomb-jump it. Here is another topic, if the build time with unlimited resources is nerfed server owners should be able to choose it as a option, not as a forced topic.

The idea of sticky bombs is not my own, I borrowed it because it was related to the topic and could help balance knights power against buildings being that the blast could be placed accurately and more efficiently.

 

Ah, Havoc, you seam to be the first person with a real attachment to the "team ladders"

i would like to know why you feel you need such a huge advantage on defense?
you already have the home turf, the high ground, the door camping, etc.
why do you need the added advantage of a castle basically becoming "Self defending" because of your team ladders?

i play archer 90% of the time, and as is, the only time a knight ever gets close to me, is if i decide to get close to him.
it really shouldn't be this way. once they break down the door (already and incredible feat considering its 30 feet off the ground and kept out of reach by team ladders), once they are through, why should i still be completely safe on top of my base?

currently moving around in an enemy base is almost impossible, all it is is team ladders everywhere. its completely ridiculous and needs to change, the only way to move forward in an enemy base is to completely knock everything down, anything else is suicide, its not very fun to try and push forward inside an enemy base.

i like team ladders too, they are a huge advantage, and that's why they need to go. in the name of game balance and fun.
something needs to change, defense cant always win and i truly believe that having no team only vertical movement will make the game a great deal more balanced.

 

Again, it's incredibly illogical for you to make opposition claims towards archers that are hiding in a accustomed structured BUILT by DYNAMIC blue print. What I'm saying is, there will be factors that will affect battle in many ways, and if you really wanted archers to be on the absolute same terrain, you wouldn't really want to bother with a game that allows players to put themselves in advantages or disadvantage.

 

I'll try to keep this brief

While at work i was musing about Helms Deep (from the LOTR movies specifically). i was thinking about how the fortress had a door in the middle of its wall vertically but because of the drawbridge it was still functional. that got me thinking "what if OUR doors had to function the same way for the same reasons?"

Sirs/Madams, i propose we make our siege engines "roll"

not roll in the traditional sense, mind you, there are no slopes in this game but roll in the sense that people manning siege engines cant ledge jump and cant fall more than 2 block without damaging the machine. this forces castles to be built with siege equipment in mind or risk a total lack of support from them. i believe this will help solve the main problem of doors being 30 feet off the ground.

then again i may be 3 steps ahead an 2 to the side by trying to modify how equipment that isnt even in the game yet works :p

 

What factors affect archer campfests? There is no great difference in effectiveness between the most common forms of cover and all of them allow safe retreat. What do you mean dynamic blue print? There's like the trap bridge with the hole cover, there's the window with ladders cover, and there's worse forms like double doors and stuff.

I think its fine that cover gives advantage I am explaining that it is invalid to say that archers are a counter to entrenched archers.

 

Worry not! Kegs will be the rich man's counter to everything.

 

I must admit a big problem I see with the OP is that you are treating Kag as if it was a completed game, as if the dev handed it out and said "this is all you'll get". You want to see change in what already exists, but this being in alpha stage gives the capability to see change through addition. Not to say that you are incorrect however as some changes are in order, I just personally see balancing being done in a different manner, and I will try to break this post apart based on these differences. Lastly I would like to state that I have read through every post and I understand alot of what I am saying has been posted already, but hopefully I will expand upon these ideas.

First is the catapult, I thought of an idea considering the archers ability to destroy them. Catapults in reality shoot in arcs, while in kag they basically shoot forward with some drop. This means for a catapult to assault a structure it needs to be roughly about the same height as its target. This means an elevated castle will require a structure built for the single purpose of holding this catapult. It also means that the building housing this catapult will have to be made specifically catered to the firing pattern of it. Archers can exploit this by shooting straight through that hole for firing. But if mouse input could change the trajectory of the catapult you could have it protected from the front with stone wall, while firing from a hole in the ceiling. Archers would now have to fire in an arc to hit it, making it more difficult.

To the complaint about people mount catapults while your mid firing, why not make it so when someone is in the act of controlling the catapult, make it unmountable? So when the person in question is not actively using it, you could then mount it.

Builder: Probably the most balanced unit of the game not to say there are not problems. The biggest buff the builder has ever received was the ability to actually hurt knights. This does make sense but as stated before it is a heavy hammer, and if you've ever hit something hard with a baseball bat you've had that heavy force feeling in your arms after swinging. So while builder v builder/archer is decent right now, I think that when you hit a knight that has armor on, you should have a longer delay between swinging. Builders should be able to protect themselves but I've personally have killed knights as a builder when in reality it shouldn't have happened.

I am against build time on altogether, and honestly I think building is in a rather good state at the moment,. I think this will be balanced out by the addition of wooden structures offering a different style of building all together, along with pricing modifications. Most of the problems with instantaneous building already have come to solutions, such as the suffocation without airholes (and if you really want to prevent people from sealing themselves in, make it require 2 adjacent holes to the surface to keep you alive).

Now about teambridges. Get rid of that vertical movement on them, it's insane. You build a castle with just them as the floor and you got a huge pitfall for the enemy team. But for the love of god make a neutral block with the same jump/drop movement. Ladders are painfully slow and I personally see them as a siege tool and safety for dangerous ledges. By removing "team only" from that vertical movement you can still navigate a complex structure quickly without ruining it completely for the opposing team.

Knight: I see alot of people complaining about the spamfest that is knight combat. This is due to the simplicity that is the knight and I see the easiest solution to creating strategy (the opposite per-say of spam) is more options. I saw the idea of standing still to thrust, which to me seemed rather silly. But what if when a knight stands still he has a different attack, a swipe maybe. A common ground between the quick stab and the windmill swing?

left/right + click = quick thrust. 1/2 heart damage to single target, does not stun opponent however when collides with shield stuns attacker. (end that spam on a shielded enemy). Clashes with swipe but not cleave.
single click = Swipe. 1 heart damage up to 2, does a stun and knocks enemy out of range (so it does not stun lock opponent). Clashes with both.
Hold down click = Windmill cleave we all love. Keep it the same as it is now. (but tweak that timer since some people report glitching/possible abuse). Clashes with swipe only.

I think with this change the knight gains more variability and you'll see less jab spam since it can possibly stun the attacker, and will not stop an opponents charged attack.

Bombs need no change, they shine for anti infantry and should stay that way. They aren't particularly meant to destroy structures and with the addition of the keg no one should really be complaining. I also do not agree with Kromag on knights breaking damaged stone. Swords aren't meant to break stone, swords are more brittle than people think. The fact knights can cut down trees without damaging their swords leads me to believe they are all actually wizards. But when wood gets added, let them cut that down all they want. After all they're at heart shock troops not engineers.

Archer: Oh lordy. In the time I have played kag the archer has changed drastically. I do believe there are some changes that will make the archer a good class without making them over or under powered. The first is that arrows should both lose damage (which they may now, although I'm not exactly sure) and velocity the longer they are in the air. Air resistance has a great effect on arrows, and by making them slower you effectively lower their range and difficulty to avoid. Teambridges should also return to blocking arrows. I know that was removed in an attempt to balance them but in reality made archers the most annoying thing in the game. Shooting through floors is ridiculous, if you remove that they cannot simply drop arrows on attackers at their front gate. I do not think they should have to stand still while charging but I am not against it being slower, so they cannot simply kite and kill knights by running then firing. In fact dont let them begin charging in midair because I see people jump and start charging in midair as archers and removing that makes the choice to fight or flee more distinct as it is harder to do both at the same time.

The new fall damage seems appropriate to knights, with the armor and all, but I do agree archers should have more tolerance to height when falling. After all they have less health and just wear robes so it would both make sense and be more balanced if they could fall more than soldiers, because basically with 5 height threshold any archer that climbs a tree is pretty much fucked. Another problem is soldiers to overcome walls and towers climb one another. If the person at the bottom gets hit they collapse the entire stack which with that fall damage would probably kill half of them. So what if knights could "catch" teammates. Landing on an allied knight shield could reduce fall damage, and give the knight more room for teamwork.

Building: Building is what makes Kag special. I think building in the alpha right now is balanced, but in very roundabout ways, mostly due to the metagame of design. Doors can be breached by knights? Place them in the air. Teambridges offer both accessibility to you and trap to enemy? Places them everywhere. Backwall vulnerable? Have 4 block thick walls so they cant push through. There is nothing wrong with this at the moment, because the building variety in kag right now is pretty juvenile. When wood blocks gets added, it will probably make up most front line structures due to the availability and speed of wood versus stone. Because wood is weaker, frontline structures will have less capability of halting the enemy team. Early game will stay roughly the same with finishing the main base a priority and knights/archers having skirmishes to try to gain some ground. Mid game will turn to seizing and holding ground, but with wood instead of stone for the most part meaning that it will allow for the losing team to counter-push more effectively. Late game will be assault/defend against a fort that actually poses a problem. With stone as it is now, with possible knight safe doors, a final push will be very climatic. It will require more builder/knight collaboration and present more opportunities for teamplay. When more siege weapons are added, it will require more strategy to keep these weapons safe.

All and all I think balancing should be done when all the content that is desired to be added is added. It won't be truly possible to balance it until everything is in and can be seen used against everything else. In the alpha stage right now Kag is alittle wonky, but thats the whole reason is not a full game yet.

 

Just keep adding content before wider balance is discussed. What happens when crazy seige weapons and fire is introduced? Aren't those a direct counter to buildings? Buildings require mineral gathering before they can be set up this is in itself a time cost to buildings. Having build time whilst building on top of the mineral gathering time would just be annoying.

PS. Also Give knights the ability to buy horses. It's cool and it allows them to catch up to archers. haha

 

Idk if there is enough time in the world to read all these suggestions...

Whatever happens, I just pray to Sweet Black Jesus that the Archer doesn't get nerfed. I don't really want to play the game if I can't be an effective ranged class

 

I've read now a lot arguments about archers and the teambridges. What would happen if Trapdoors would block archers arrows when placed? That way builders would need to think where and how they place their teambridges on a building or they make a "free shield" for the enemy from arrows.

Spiritlol mentioned something that could be a nice change for archers. Make archers lose their charge if the jump. So they either have to stand still or move slow to charge the arrow. That gives the knights the upper hand again in Melee combat. In return we could give the archers traps.
An archer could carry between 1-2 beartraps and place them (placing them in grass makes them harder visible). A beartrap would do 1 heart of damage and root the enemy for 1-2 seconds (they could still attack and maybe shield to defend themself)

 

So I read through this whole thread (regretably), and have attempted to condense the first 7 pages--sorry page 8, tl;dr :D

Suggestions

Key--->Distinct suggestions grouped into broad categories, with the suggestion followed by "==" for those I determined to be supporters, and "++" for those I determined as detractors. These definitions are admittedly hard to read, and quite possibly incorrect (people are vague and I am tired) but maybe they will help those who want to contribute--yet don't want to read all the damn essays.

-Builders
-Longer block-placement time for Builders==Contrary, Rayne, AJ, Korin, Geti, Neat, potatomcwhiskey++Mugumaster, Karlford_of_Acre, Chinizz, thebonesauce, Havoc
-Lessen build-phase "free resources"==Contrary, Rayne, AJ++Hella, take, ENDOFRINE
-Faster "player placed blocks" destruction==Machinista, thebonesauce
-Slower combat hits==Geti, Korin++Machinista
-Punish "entombing"==alexsdsd, Geti, fubble, thebonesauce, Mellian-Quar-Xililix, Bracket
-"Regenerative" resources==Ramsis
-Charge attack with increased damage to buildings==xato13
-Limit number of teams builders==scienceboy++thebonesauce
-Limit carry ammount for builders==scienceboy
-Progressively builds blocks=kromag
-Limit carry ammount during build phase==ENDOFRINE,
-Introduce a block "settle" time==Pigbuster
-Knights
-Allow Knights to destroy all blocks==Darcia, Foxodi, GloriousToast, BlueLuigi, Darcia, Frikman++Vivicus,Geti, Gunnar
-Nerf bombjump==ChronoWaster, Vogie++BlueLuigi
-Jab spam makes you immobile==Geti,CoughDrop, AJ++BlueLuigi,Neat
-Jab does not clash with slash==Geti++Rayne
-Jab does not stun, only pushes==Geti, Neat, potatomcwhiskey
-Increase time between jabs==Rayne++BlueLuigi
-Raise slash charge time==Korin++BlueLuigi
-Bombs not destructive to blocks==Baron_Norab, Karlford_of_Acre, potatomcwhiskey++
-Alternate weapons to allow block destruction==SonidZero, Mulpy
-Can't bombjump into doors==JackMcDaniels
-Bombs do more block damage==Darcia
-More bomb types==Darcia, Havoc
-Nerf shield bash==potatomcwhiskey
-Bomb damage gradient==potatomcwhiskey
-Slash vs. slash causes clash==AJ
-Can break already damaged blocks==kromag, BlueLuigi, Neat, SirEndgame++Baron_Norab
-Archers
-Remove movement while charging==Foxodi
-Raise minimum charge time==Geti, CoughDrop, BlueLuigi, potatomcwhiskey, Vogie
-Raise charge shot charge time==Korin
-Arrow friendly fire==Bracket
-Arrows weaker overall==SonidZero
-Arrows harder to obtain==SonidZero
-Less fall damage==Chrispin, Vogie

-General Game
-Stronger doors==Huper, Geti, ChronoWaster, Shadlington, Karlford_of_Acre
-Remove "team-only vertical travel"==Geti, Bracket, Shadlington, Verdant, thebonesauce
-Increased fall damage==Geti, Bracket, CoughDrop, Vogie++BlueLuigi Rayne, Cadbury, thebonesauce, Karlford_of_Acre
-More "anti-building" options==JackMcDaniels, Machinista, Recs, souldown, Karlford_of_Acre, Sapirot, BlueLuigi, xato13, Chrispin, Avacado, LzzGauzz, ENDOFRINE, thebonesauce, qwertycrackers, DarkaHairedIrish
-Trapdoors "one-way" for friend and foe==Fellere825++Kouji
-New "stealth" trapblock==Mugumaster
-Addition of "portcullis" effect for doors==Bracket
-Team Bridges slow vertical movement++Demented_SCV
-Different "Strength Tiers" of building blocks==Chrispin, ParaLogia, Vogie, LzzGauzz
-Subclasses==JackMcDaniels, BlueLuigi, LzzGauzz
-Limited combat allowed during build phase==kromag,thebonesauce
-Catapults do less damage to buildings==BlueLuigi, Viken
-Catapults do less damage to players==BlueLuigi
-Catapult "driver" can choose whether or not to fire a "passenger"==thebonesauce
-Have "Attacking/Defending" teams==Gunnar

Hopefully this helps!1!

I was going to add my own observations, but am too sleepy now. I thoroughly expect everyone to listen and take notes when I do, however.

 

Thanks a lot Zefree for combining all the arguments into one single post
That should help people that are new to the thread to gain a good insight of what already happened and join the discussion.

+1 for you !

 

While I haven't heard much about the exact direction the developers are going in, didn't they say they were considering an upgrade system for units? So I think it makes sense to generally nerf all the units. That way through the upgrade system they could slowly return to their former glory, and then become even stronger than what we're calling OP.
ex) A rank 1 builder might have a 5 second delay between blocks but a more upgraded builder has no delay at all.

 

Why everyone want to nerf builder ? If builder piss you off so much, because they can insta-build tower, because there is no builder to help you to ladder up, etc... just suppress the builder class.
A five second delay between blocks just mean that builder would do more and more minecrafting in your base, or that no one would ever play builder. So suppress builder.
No team only laddering ? So you just have to bomb door. No need of builder. The only solution to stop knight pillaging then will be to make immense trap pit, that will take forever to dig, and that no one would ever cross, because making a bridge will take forever, and the bridge will be two way. So suppress builder.
Knight could destroy all block? Non sense... and what about making an hybrid knight-builder class? It will be as strong as a knight, it will trhow bomb, and he will be able to do the same thing the builder do.

Im against nerfing in anyway builder. Builder are just fine like that.

If building piss you off so much, play at Mount & Blade, no need to ladder up, because the ladder are already there, and if you hate sieging, just don't siege.

I think that Knight should be nerfed, bomb flying everywhere are just annoying, Archer should be nerfed, cause arrow are just annoying.
Builder should be granted of insta--Perfect-Building abilities for free, a jet pack, a mjolnir that can throw insta-kill-lightning-bolt and perma team safe eye laser beam.

EDIT : and if you want to destroy building, just buy kag, wait for destruction machine release and shut the f**k up.
Anyway, it's just stupid to destroy build, if you could convert it for 120 wood in average. Destroying take more time, and you will have to construct it again, if you hate runnig.

 

My issues:
-Knights standing on my head when I get knocked into a hole as a builder, at least give me enough time to :( before I die.
-Trying to ladder up for the team, and the enemy decides its time to play Normandy.
-People who hold the bomb till right before it explodes and throw it behind you.
-Getting shot through a solid wall by an archer.
- Archers who tree surf away from a lot of angry knights.

 

The only issue I find is getting shot through a solid wall. What's wrong with the others?

 

I think he has been directed from the blog, and are writing what he find problematic, game health-wise.

Generally, i agree that magic block placing is problematic, as it enforces that builders should tunnel. Why? because that is the only place, builders are safe from bombjumping knights and screenlong arrow trajectories.
A fix to that, is the aforementioned time to build blocks. Now, i think that builders are fine power-wise, since they need archers and knights, and archers and knights need them. That is fine, because they fill completely different roles.
Making catapults less effective at killing people would be very nice also.

But truly, i think that when zombies get out, is when people truly can discuss balance, as a lot of extra factors will be introduced there.