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Wall Running Experiments

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by DevBlogger, Sep 18, 2013.

  1. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    I find builders strangely more capable than an archer... I must really not care for the grapple, and the still incredible prevalence of the multi shot.
    Even if their walls are useless, they can still counter-mine, and build really annoying production lines... they seem to only be capable at very offensive/rush building.

    Also, going back to whatever I failed to say... Even if you have a more reliable wall run ability, does it completely prevent the possibility of a knight doing the wall-humping-shield-glide thing that makes the climb up walls infinitely.
     
  2. driecoolguy36

    driecoolguy36 Shopkeep Stealer

    Messages:
    34
    I am really excited for this. Finally my fingers wont hurt getting over walls :D
     
  3. Nighthawk

    Nighthawk gaurenteed shitter

    Messages:
    793
    I like the work being done on the new and improved wallrunning, but I can't help agreeing with the guys who are saying that buildings are becoming more and more useless with each passing update.
    Back in Alpha, taking down a tower was a real accomplishment, and the resulting collapse was epic and satisfying. In Beta, we see changes to Builder that make it harder to build large, effective defenses, (lack of notch-climbing and teambridges, annoying block placement, etc.) a problem which is only compounded by other classes' incredible ability to either rip them apart (mostly Knights in this case) or completely circumvent them (Knights AND Archers). When you take down a tower now, which is a rare occurrence in and of itself, the tower is hardly ever a giant, spike-covered sky-piercing (colored-lantern-filled) monster that struck fear into even the best bombjumpers, but a small, insignificant base whose only purpose is to house a few more factories and set the spawn point further up on the battlefront.

    Building used to be an honorable profession. Strathos was a shining example of this in Alpha; he was a shirtless, squishy little Builder, yeah - but he was a feared and respected shirtless, squishy little Builder. When he got on top of his towers and prepared to drop blocks on you, you knew you'd damn well better be careful.

    Builders are kind of an afterthought now. They die far too easily, are really awful at defending themselves, and their only strength, building, has become very easily beatable. If somebody asks you what class you like best, you're considered an oddity for saying Builder, and that's kind of... wrong. In a game with three classes, every single one ought to be fun to play, and with all the recent attention to Archers, (not that I don't love Archers (I usually only Archer if you didn't know)) Builders are kinda getting the short end of the stick.
     
  4. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    It ends up that Archers become the bane of construction, because of their ability to get anywhere.

    I still don't like the feel of the new stick that the archers got... as far as tropes of, I think they are now "Demon Spider".
     
  5. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

    Messages:
    574
    I agree with you with all points stated but I think builders strengths might show up in the oncoming CTF mode seeing how it would change gameplay massively, TTH seems like a quick push mode which is also hard for builders to be at any use most of the time as there is not enough time to build because capturing halls means closer spawn for enemy team and that also means countless waves and also the fact that builder is so squishy now makes him useless in TTH.
     
  6. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    I suppose it's not the fact that they are so squishy, it's just that no where is safe for them anymore.
     
  7. kedram

    kedram Drill Rusher Tester

    Messages:
    449
    hmm there appears to be some recent issuses with what i believe to be the master server? all servers apear to be giving off big lag spikes to everyone. it starts and keeps goin on for like... 3o minutes max and then stops for like an hour or two. it then starts up again. just noticed it today. not sure if its a massive problem or im just over reacting ???
     
  8. Lol builders in classic are op as fuck. Do you want untouchable shitlords who have the ability to stall the game for hours to be back?
     
    Ghozt and Contrary like this.
  9. Chrispin

    Chrispin KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    380
    There's a fine balance between classic's entombing, ladder spamming, infinite resource builders and beta's awkward-to-use, glass builders that don't stand a chance on the front lines even with escorts. It's really easy to single out a builder in a crowd of knights jumping all over the place because you just have to look for the player that can't move like a UFO (not saying I have a problem with knight movement).
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2013
    GloriousToast likes this.
  10. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

    Messages:
    2,196
    This is actually true and in fact, builders are still extremely powerful just that their strength has always been very subtle. Even something as extremely trivial as going to a flat plain where a lot of battles happen and adding a layer of wood so that your team engages on a layer of high ground. This seems so minor yet every good knight knows how valuable even one tile of height advantage is an engagement. For 10 seconds work and a handful of wood a builder can give their team a critical edge in that location for the rest of the game, potentially dozens of fights to come. Even if that edge only comes out to an average of one knight taking 1 heart less damage per confrontation (a modest estimate) that's still up to 12 hearts of damage avoidance for 10 seconds work. This is only one basically trivial example of what builders can do, staple stuff like walling up halls or bridging gaps can change in the ide of battle, just in ways that aren't as obvious as a knight flying around slashing people or an archer... Well archers never do anything but the knight example still works.

    Anyways that said builder is not weak, but it would not necessarily be harmful to the game to make them a little stronger, so long as its in the right ways.
     
  11. Chrispin

    Chrispin KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    380
    A builder can be strong or weak depending on the situation. Such is the case for even archers. The question is, "Are the strengths reliable enough to make the class worth my time?" I would argue that your example doesn't really give you a reliable advantage. The slightly raised platform could easily be turned against the team that built it, making sensible people think twice before constructing it. The problem right now is that I'm not even sure I'm helping my team as a builder anymore after the build timer ends. Or if I am helping my team it's not very exciting (ex: minecrafting).
     
  12. ironballs

    ironballs Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    32
    Wow. Even betaphiles realized that the game goes in the wrong direction. :oops:
     
    Drafiks likes this.
  13. uhhh, its moving in the good direction which is "as far from that balance pile of shit known as classic as possible"
    you cant expect a multiplayer game to always have perfect balance/playability/whatever because they never have. i think this one is pretty ok given its developed by 2 people
     
    Contrary likes this.
  14. GloriousToast

    GloriousToast Haxor Donator

    Messages:
    1,463
    Balance is an asymptote. You can try to get close but you will never reach it.
     
    Stevedog and Chrispin like this.
  15. Boea

    Boea Such Beta

    Messages:
    653
    It's a strange, strange direction towards balance, but at the same time everything becomes easier to attack, and less safe.
     
  16. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    2,508
    To all those suggesting removing wall run because <insert various reasons --mainly revolving around it "making buildings/builders ineffective"-- here> I would like to offer the following:

    Seriously? :huh?:

    Do you really want to go back to fumbling around, having a good portion of your play time taken up not striving in glorious battle but rather not being able to get to the bleeding frontline because terrain-erosion and limited movement options keep stalling you? Do you really want a PvP game where the PvE elements are constantly going 25252525 :teabag: :bird: at you?

    Eww.

    Classic avoids this issue because the parkour system (based around notching & vaulting) allows for a wide, dynamic range of movement. In fact, the parkour system in Classic allows PvE to becomes highly enjoyable in/of itself.

    Beta has no notching and its vaulting is more limited. It originally had no wall running/jumping of any sort. Moving about ingame was, quite frankly, awful; it was somewhat analogous to trying to complete an assault/obstacle course only using elbows & knees-- or in a wheelchair. :huh?: It was obvious we needed some way to readily navigate 70-80% of rough terrain. Maybe if I outline the stages wall run/jump has gone through you can see why it's a necessary component of KAG and why the current implementation is the best yet:

    • No wall jump/run. With minimal vaulting and no notching, movement on anything but the flattest of maps was painful and tended to require a builder with ladders to babysit you. Falling into a hole deeper than 3 blocks was cause for suicide.
    • The first few implementations of wall jump (as it was then known) were clunky but eventually we got the "jump back off the wall at a 45° angle" version working. Getting out of water and over some ledges was fiddly/counter-intuitive but the ability to parkour your way out of pits? Priceless. :r_flex:
    • Minor variations on the 45° wall jump. These helped remove some of the fiddliness, but the awkward "I'm jumping away from the ledge I'm trying to reach" feeling remained.
    • Current wall run. Now you only travel in the direction you are pressing, which means no more unexpected "hey, I didn't want to jump off the wall like that" moments. Hooray! That said, spamming the jump key is lame & RSI-inducing and makes coordinating a tic tac fiddly at times.
    • New wall run (current in the testing build). Like the current wall run, but without the wrist-numbing button mashing. As a result tic tacing is also easier/smoother/feels more like the real thing.
    Ofc, there are still some issues with the new wall run (a major one being that atm you can wall run through spikes unharmed) but in terms of making the game more accessible by (quite literally) making it more accessible the new wall run is the latest improvement in a steady chain of changes for the better movement-wise.
    ---

    Now, for those who are bitching about wall running being bad for buildings/builders, I have three words: Get. Over. Yourselves. I may not be Strathos but I'm no slouch neither when it comes to the building arts and I'm telling you, in no uncertain terms, that if you can't factor in a little more mobility* on the part of your opponents then GO BACK TO PUB VILLE WHERE YOU BELONG! :left::>:(::argh: Seriously, the added mobility gives you more options when constructing things because you can rely on your teammates having ease-of-access while trying to clamber through the clutter of doors/blocks/spikes that generally gets spewed out and labeled "My Glorious Creation". :hammer::smug:

    tl;dr
    Up to a certain point, more mobility is better. Despite cries of "remove all wall run/jump" I don't think it can be honestly argued that we have passed that point with either the current wall run or the new, yet-to-be-publicly-released, version.

    *NB: Not talking about wallhumping. That's silly. Although, tbh, pretty easy to account for in building design. :rollseyes:

    {edit}
    Oh yes, there were people bitching about it removing/replacing the utility of slash jump. Seriously, while there remain feats of mobility that only knights using slash jump can do I think it's pretty safe assume that slash jump remains a viable mechanic.

    {edit2}
    Also, is it just me or are people trying to turn this into a "what wrong with builder" thread? You know, while I appreciate the idea, this really isn't the right place to do it. Maybe go take it to Suggestions or the Builder section in C&M?
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2013
    Stevedog and Robinskie like this.
  17. ironballs

    ironballs Catapult Fodder

    Messages:
    32
    Фдыщ
    Next stage - notch climbing? :rollseyes:

    Also, what wrong in help of builder with ladder? I thought that it's a team game.
     
  18. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

    Messages:
    574
    Devs try to make classes bit more independent because back in Classic not having a builder up front caused massive amount of failures, being stuck in a hole and waiting for builder to make ladder for you was a bit painful and stalled action a lot, it did however had some advantages for enemy team that could use it with good purpose.

    Although the problem now is that builder became really squishy and going up to front means certain death as the survival ability is really low in beta, you are instantly such an easy target to pick off, builder needs bit more offensive ability to be able to be out there to at least help your team move onward faster so in this case making builder more agile might help to dodge attacks from knights, the only problem now is archers who can pick you off very easily.
     
  19. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    2,508
    Eww. No.

    Notching was cancer for buildings as it just encouraged novice builders to make 30+ high (& 3 thick!) towers with team door notchs. *shudder* We're never going back there again, trust me. ;)
     
    Chrispin and Guitarman like this.
  20. LostPix

    LostPix Base Burner

    Messages:
    574
    Fuck I'm happy I wasn't the only one that hated climbing these shit but effective towers all the time, so tedious.