What is a small change that could improve the current build drastically? [1236]

@ParaLogia It's a necessary evil in order to make shield climbing work.

 

Go back to 1180 but have shield glide and infinite wall climb changes. Also keep builder block repair and the miscellaneous fixes.

Hate the new jab and shotgun shot.

 

There are multiple people that have come to that same conclusion, and that speaks words.
Maybe there should be an official poll, like drills, as to whether the Shotgun is good or not (not if they like it, since everyone that can destroy a knight as an archer from point-blank would like it).

 

I think the reason 1180 was good was that knights were OP, but because of that stuff got done. I don't think archers are OP now, I'm not seeing them wreck everything alive like knights in 1180, but they are very weird.

The way the archer class works they should be more reliant on towers and offensive builders as they were in classic, but now they just charge in and get some kills quickly, then die very quickly too. They are not stronger than knights, but right now it is like they are a worse version of a knight. One that can get quicker kills, but has no pushing power.

Reverting to 1180 is probably the worst thing that can be done right now. The builds after 1180 were a step in the right direction in terms of nerfing knights, but not buffing archers. Archers do not work like knights, so simply boosting their offensive power screws up the game.

What we need is encouragement in terms of building towers. This is the one place classic has the edge. Better towers. As an almost exclusive archer, I quite dislike this new, player offensive focus. Grappling up towers and blowing them up is my favourite part of KAG. In order to evolve the archer in the right direction, we need a few builder/tower buffs. Archer is player offensive support. That is what they should be. They are a moving part of a tower.

This is not an archer vs knight power balance. The three classes are separate points on the offensive compass. Towers are the fourth. Right now, the archer point has slipped all the way over, so that it and the knight are almost the same. They are totally different, distinct classes. This is the whole game of KAG, not just one aspect. That's why this build feels so wrong.

We'll need some changes. A lot of them. Namely:

• Get rid of the shotgun. Archer is not primarily CQC.
• Higher build height. We need taller towers, not thicker ones.
• Better grapple. We need a more efficient, less awkward grapple. Archers need more mobility, not more attack.
• Make trampolines more resilient and take longer to turn off.
• More resilient siege engines.
• Increase shield angle slightly. Easier bomb jumps, less awkward slashes. Not so much that arrows are blocked 270.
• Less super-stalemate maps with the flag two metres from spawn.
• More maps with islands. More archer grappling, more tower building.
• Drill overheats a bit more slowly. ~Changed cause @Dargona1018 said it was stupid.
• More variety in maps. More aspects of the game tested in more ways.
• Better chicken glide.
• Greater catapult launch distance.
• Catapult ammo is cheaper.
• Compulsory builder class until the last 30-45 seconds of the build phase.
• Rotatable trampolines.
• Flashing display that appears if builders hang around the flag for too long.
• Achievement system. Achievements will focus on things that better your play style.
• Team orientated achievements over solo ones. "You helped capture the flag" not "You captured the flag". Stops people from fighting over who claims it.
• Achievements for player/shark/bison/chicken/trader kills. Collapses. Mine/fire/water/bomb kills. No K/D achievements. Siege weapon usage.
• (CTF only) Limit to the number of man-made blocks that can be placed horizontally next to each other. Higher towers not uber-dense walls.
• Tickets
• We need more suggestions than this, especially ones that help multiple tower building.

 

Exactly how do you think increased block mining speed will decrease the amount of stone builders pile around flags? If anything, it would only increase.
Not trying to start an argument, I just don't understand your logic.

 

The difference between all of the classic buildings and lack of buildings in the official game is because the meta is different. The current meta encourages offensive players and builders are primarily a defensive class. This was no different in classic however it might have been a bit more balanced. Builders get destroyed very easily because they have no way of attacking or protecting themselves, that's why there aren't more buildings. There also used to be tickets which encouraged buildings because of the end game wasn't going to be a stalemate, it would be a last man standing/deathmatch.

 

I worded that wrongly. Only built stone blocks would be mined more quickly. Not stone ore. It wouldn't decrease the amount of stone piled, only lessen the effect it would have. I have edited my comment to reflect this.

 

I don't see how builder need any buffs or nerfs.
They are perfect the way they are. If you had been in any games with a good offensive builder, you would see that breaking those blocks faster would destroy the balance of the game. Then, all/most flags would need to be right next to the tent, as it would be terrible to have to walk all that distance just to try to get to the builder.

Also, another thing wrong with that. It'd make offensive building superior.
Offensive Builders and close-range Archers are supposed to be something that you strive for, and now, with you being able to break into bases faster, this will mean that one of two things will happen:
1. Everyone now makes the bases about, oh, 3+ layers thicker, which you said you hate.
Or:
2. Offensive Building will become so easy that we will have a builder-spam problem, just like with the shotgun update and the archer-spam after it.

With achievements, I see no use of them. It would all be subjective and would add tracking into the game, which would be a hassle for the Devs without it really giving much. After all, if you need achievements to feel better or think that you are good, you will probably just not play the game again, like most people that come in from Steam and think the game as the polar opposite of that which it is: A competitive and skill-based game, where there are some mods if you wish to take a break from slashing open people's spleens and ripping off their appendages.

 

Builders are in no way perfect. Towers are only ever built straight on the flag. A good offensive builder is not one who tries to solo the whole way through the match. A good offensive builder builds tunnels, towers and shops on the front line in order to help the offense, and then goes in to break down the enemy towers when there is an opening. Do realise by offensive, I mean ones that build/destroy things on the front line to back up their allies, not just people who only break down flag towers.

We are supposed to strive for offensive builders? What does that even mean? How does it relate to CQC archers? As in only the most elite builders can become offensive and all the scrubs should keep minecrafting or building giant towers near spawn? CQC archers should be an advantage if you are good. Offensive building is necessary.

The one thing really thick towers will do is help people who love entombing. The way to stop an entomber is to break blocks faster than he can place them. When drills became a builder only item, therefore increasing builders mining speed, was there a sudden surge in really thick towers? No, there was not.

That leaves us with the other outcome. Archer spam is very different to builder spam. A majority archer team will be unable to make ground without many knights to push and therefore builders will not survive to build defense further afield. The match will probably stagnate or the team will lose.

Builder spam on the other hand, will increase the number of tunnellers thereby cutting the teams pushing power significantly. The minority of knights/archers will not be able to push or provide cover, resulting in the other team having a massive advantage. You may try to argue that the number of builders will mean more towers, but the problem there is that this update will only help offensive builders. Even if the towers were a bit stronger, the other teams builders could easily push through and take them out. A majority builder team is not a viable strategy. That said, many matches for a while have been won because someone could actually be bothered to become an offensive builder. It is something that should be encouraged. CQC archer is something that should be attained. As I mentioned in my post, every class is wildly different and cannot be equated like that.


On the subject of achievements, many competitive, skill-based games provide an achievement system. We don't need achievements, it's just that many people will play a few matches, get bored, and will think "Oh well, that's that." and will stop playing. If new players are getting constantly defeated, and insulted by very good players, they have no reason to keep playing. KAG has a high skill curve and very few players at this time, when many strong players have honed their skills, are going to keep practising until they can compete. That's not fun, that's work. Some people may enjoy that sort of thing, but they are in the minority.

People need constant feedback telling them that they are good at the game and so that they have something to work towards. With this system in place new players would stick around long enough become good at the game and will have given it greater worth in their minds. Right now it's "that game where I got owned and I could maybe do something if I invested a bit more ti..Hey is that a new half-life mod?". It should be "Well I just got owned, but a few more kills and I get that new achievement! Maybe one more match...".

 

I see that as a Forward Builder. A more appropriate term would be . . sapper. The one that goes up to the base, blocks doors, and builds ladders. The entombers are just . . . lame . .and aren't in that group.

Think of it as a good sapper, like Swine. You can not wake up and be like "I'm gonna be a sapper today!" as their fragility makes it much harder than it looks.

Not exactly sure what matches you have been in...
Drills seem to now be glitched (hasn't tested) where they are now useless, as they seem to overheat as fast as they would on dirt while breaking everything, including rock.
I also don't see how entombing means anything with that, other than the fact that knights can't just hop into the air and smash their faces, as thinner towers would allow.
The thick ones with platforms are for explosives, not entombers or sappers.

There are many parts in the builder's arsenal that one-shots (boulders, spike-drops, drills to the face helps a bit), so they could be an all-builder team .....

I was using it as sorta an analogy. There will be more spammable techniques with builders that all other classes will be underpowered.
They can break faster? We should have more to get into the base quickly.
Oh, people are hiding and breaking through? We need builders to get into there, but we need more since they'll repair blocks.
Oh man, we can't be on the offense much while these builders are getting through all our defenses within a split second........... We need more builders!

It would be a never-ending cycle of who-has-more-builders, not who-has-more-skill-and-can-kill-them.

I've never believed in giving people achievements, just to play more. The only reason why this game doesn't get more people, is because Steam and other platforms don't accurately show what the game is about, so some plebs go in, thinking that it'll be a semi-relaxed game where you can have even battles, where that is not the case.

If we can sell it from a "its amazing when you destroy someone that used to destroy you" or an e-sports standpoint (if I am using that term correctly). Then, we can get those people that wish to be elitists, since this game kinda is a race of who can get to the best player first and destroy everyone, and then we can kindle the fire under this game.

But, getting more people to play is another thing for another time.

EDIT: Oh god, am I turning into one of those people that makes huge walls'o'text responding to other huge walls'o'text?

 

Okay, tbh that probably wasn't the best suggestion. Making drills take longer to overheat may be a better idea.

I don't think the builder-spam would be that bad, but it definitely wouldn't be fun.

Yeah, boosting the competitive scene is probably a good idea too. Personally, I don't care about achievements, but if it encourages people, I can bear them.

ONE OF US. ONE OF US.
Seriously though, it's okay as long as you don't go too off topic or start insulting people. Your comments are also well laid out and I usually understand exactly what you are saying.

 

It's okay, we all get some . . . . interesting thoughts enter our heads. Thus the forum was born, so people can be slapped in the face over forums instead of in person!

Also, cool. -He said, going almost fully off-topic for the whole post

 

I'm a 100% with the tickets thing [And I'm sure that most people are as well], But will/when shall it be added? @Geti

 

I think water bombs should be more useful or just more used in general. Maybe we could be able to stack 2 or increace the area of effect that it has or make the stun a second or so longer.

 

They need to fix builder hitting. I can't hit blocks that are right in front of me because it prioritizes platforms. I also damage shops by accident because I'm trying to hit a block but it damages the shop instead. Plz fix

 

plz see my sig for refs @Geti @MM

 

You have some excellent points. Shotgun needs to go and all of your small changes are well founded (some of them are just perfect (ie. compulsory builder in building phase)). Since I never played classic I have no idea how well the ticket system would work, but to me it sounds too much like "the team with less scrubs wins" or "the team with a single amazing player who slaughters the entire enemy team solo wins" (cough...Gurin...cough). Something that I think would lead to more towers being built is cheaper tunnels. Now that they require gold they are too much of an investment, leading to them being used less offensively as putting them in a forward tower is too risky. However I think that this could be balanced by them being destroyed faster/easier, especially from slashes/jabs (seriously it takes WAY too long for 1 person to take out a tunnel solo - if you get into their tunnel room solo, you will have almost no effect).

 

Good one. Revert to not using gold for tunnels, and make them a lot weaker. Maybe 2x the hits needed for a regular wood shop, and those take like 3 slashes? 6 Slashes isn't much, and one bomb arrow could take them out, or two bombs (One bomb = 3 slashes)

 

WOW hold up, these sound way too weak. I reckon 10 slashes, 5 bombs (so one knight can not just splurg a dump and take it out in no time), 2 bomb arrows that hit the blocks that the tunnels is adjacent to (same for ballista bolts and cata), 1 direct hit keg with damage decreasing with distance (same with mines), 4 hits as builder.

Also, if people agree with making them cheaper, how much stone do you think they should need? I think 100 makes them too expensive, but 50 would be too cheap. IMO around 60 would be in the ball park.

 

A "small changes" thread!

*mouth starts watering*

Add more chickens to each map.

Duplo has spoken. Lets see what horrors ensue.