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What makes a good CTF map? (Discussion)

Discussion in 'Maps' started by FuzzyBlueBaron, Oct 4, 2013.

  1. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    2,508
    Do that here. Particularly as it'll help things that are happening over here.
     
  2. Fellere825

    Fellere825 KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    890
    Got bored... made my thoughts into a guide. It was easier to categorize things in my head this way...

    Basically for every aspect of the game ask yourself, "what will this do?" and "how will it do that?"

    My opinion of what aspects to focus on are these (in order of importance):
    1. Dimensions
    2. Resources
    3. Terrain
    4. Aesthetics

    Map dimensions
    Currently medium sized (only because KAB cant support giant amounts of players) maps are ideal for CTF. If the maps are too small you are vulnerable to early rushing, lack of resources, pitiful base building, etc. If the map is too large players will be too spread out and players will bore quickly of the lack of action.

    My recommendations around 300-400 pixels wide and 100-150 pixels high.

    Resources
    Map design should account for resource locations and quantity. Any map designer should ask themselves, "Will the player be able to easily and effectively locate the resources?" Maps should have natural markers to point players to resources. Like the one stone block that leads to a giant stone deposit or trees located nearby the spawn.
    Another question to ask, "Is there enough resources to last about a(n) ______ long?" Resource management is key. A game without any resources stagnates quickly. A game with too many resources encourages minecrafting. Games can last either many hours or a couple of minutes based upon resources and map dimensions.

    My recommendation is to account for about an hours worth of gameplay when trying to determine resource quantity.

    Terrain
    Maps should have three types of areas minimum.
    1. Base Locations
    2. Resource Locations
    3. Combat Locations
    Base Location
    For the most part the base location should be easily maneuverable and provide the player easy access to an initial resource deposit. (For example maps that have water in the building area are difficult to work with.) The location should allow players to easily build defenses around the flag in CTF.

    Resource Location
    There are pretty much two thoughts concerning resource placement in KAB map design. One being resources should be concentrated in the center to promote combat. The second being resources are spread evenly throughout the map to create a natural progression in combat. Both have their pros and cons.

    Combat Locations
    Combat locations must be adaptable. Playing in a giant arena of bedrock or a giant lake gets bored fast. Having a balance of different blocks ensures creativity and freedom in the combat zone.

    Often times these areas will overlap during the progression of the game. Nonetheless it is important to create these different locations so that games will not be lacking in any one type of terrain.

    Aesthetics
    So after you have a decent sized map that takes into account resources, terrain, and the three different types of locations you can now focus on making your map pretty. You can add your bushes, grains, fireplaces all willy nilly.

    Note these are my opinions and in no way am I forcing anyone to do these things while designing a map. I'm up for changing this because its midnight here and I probably messed up somewhere.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
    Guitarman, Contrary, Gurin and 2 others like this.
  3. FuzzyBlueBaron

    FuzzyBlueBaron Warm, Caring, Benign, Good and Kind Philanthrope Global Moderator Forum Moderator Donator Tester
    1. The Young Blood Collective - [YB]

    Messages:
    2,508
    Just a thought, but don't larger maps allow for teleporters to becomes strategically significant buildings?
    ----

    Also, any thoughts on maps with many levels/paths as compared to maps with few or only one path?
     
  4. Fellere825

    Fellere825 KAG Guard Tester

    Messages:
    890
    Everything has its pros and cons bro. It all depends on what you want and how you execute it.

    Maps with multiple paths allow for greater replay value and will last longer in terms of being "fresh" while maps that have one path might be the favorites for people who enjoy combat first and foremost.

    btw I've been editing the guide over and over lol so I think I answered your question about larger maps already? If not you are right in that it makes tunnels strategically significant. The only problem is the fact that larger maps with low player counts makes the action too spread out.
     
  5. Rocinante

    Rocinante Ballista Bolt Thrower

    Messages:
    133
    My initial thoughts,

    All flags are immediately available to their respective teams. I'm not sure if in these CTF maps where flags are inaccessible in the build phase it's because of a map creator error or if it's deliberate. No more outer-space flags.

    There needs to be incentives to take and hold lanes. This applies to TTH as well, but with CTF it's even more important that the map maker gives the teams reasons to want ground which does not hold a flag or isn't a straight line to the other team. Builders have more leeway in CTF so there needs to be lanes, vertical and horizontal, for them to shore up and advance on. The MillenniumBell map is good in this respect. I would even go so far as to say that lanes along with good materials placement keeps builders advancing. (Importantly, these lanes you make should hold up to the havoc.) Dumb space doesn't lend itself to good builder habits. It's a hypothesis. :smug:
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
    FuzzyBlueBaron likes this.
  6. Auburn

    Auburn Prepare Yourself! Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Tester
    1. SharSharShar - [SHARK]

    Messages:
    734
    I see one issue with this, builders wouldn't be able to build tall enough to keep out bomb jumpers, in fact, they already can't. A good double bomb jumper can usually just hop over defenses because the builders can't build high enough, especially on some maps where there is dirt for the knights to jump off of. Adding a roof doesn't help because 2-3 well placed bombs can get you inside. I think the map size should be increased, but only extended up (if this can be done without causing too many bugs).
     
  7. Contrary

    Contrary The Audacious Paramount of Explosive Flight Donator Tester

    Messages:
    2,196
    Someone once had an idea of making birds that attack you if you're sitting too high up. It would be a good deterrent to really tall buildings I think, though still possible if you took the time to shoot all the birds.

    I'll art it if someone codes it.
     
  8. Fate

    Fate Studying seashells

    Messages:
    593
    Make it Gregs.
     
    Piano likes this.
  9. steve_jobs

    steve_jobs Horde Gibber

    Messages:
    134
    I think that on a CTF map, the amount of gold on the map should be kept to a minimum.
    it only costs 50 gold to construct a siege workshop, and most maps have at least 3 unconcealed gold blocks beside their base.
    You should not be able to get catapults so early on in the game.
     
  10. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    I always tend to prefer maps that have the gold in the middle, with a chasm separating both sides from it. You have a position that's easy to fortify for both teams, an objective in the middle to take over (I prefer when it's buried a little underground), and a massive trap chasm (Even 4 tiles wide is good) that kills the stupid rushing idiots. It encourages people to take risks for the gold, but also encourages defense and teamwork to take advantage of the other team's distraction with the gold.

    Also, I wish sharks were way more vicious, tearing at anything that fell in the water. It'd make shark-infested waters into horribly dangerous moats that required a boat to cross.
     
  11. short story long, making a regular balanced map:
    - 2-3 flags per team
    - at least 1 flag not reachable during build time
    - all flags in open space/enclosed but very very easily achievable location
    -tents should never be enclosed
    -left and right side of the map should be as open as possible
    -middle of the map should have enough enclosed spaces and corridors that a builder can function freely there without getting raped
    -a knight should always be able to reach any location of the map without excessive digging (ofc with no player-made buildings)
    -a knight should always be able to run from one tent to the other (with no player-made buildings)
    -an archer should be able to grapple through the entire map smoothly (using trees, block ledges, wild rope spring launches etc.)
    -as little premade structures as possible
    -no fucking animals on the map

    i could probably expand on those but i think that anyone whos played some ctf knows reasoning behind each point
     
  12. Asu

    Asu THD Team THD Team Forum Moderator

    Messages:
    1,578
    It totally depends of the kind of server.

    The number of flags should be like this :
    1-5 players > 1 flag.
    5-15 players > 2 flags.
    15-30 players > 3 flags.

    Like Ej' said, a non-reachable flag at building time is interesting, it forces builders to come on the battlefield to protect the flag, and it forces the knights and archers not to dick around but to defend them.

    If you make 2 flags that are very close, it totally ruins the interest of the map and then, it is like there was a single flag.

    A important thing too, it's :
    Make your map original at possible. It is the most important thing and half of time, everyone will love you, and say 'cool map bro'.
     
  13. Duplolas

    Duplolas So Sad

    Messages:
    917
    I talked to a guy who was developing a few really large maps for a server he was setting up. These are the points I made to him.

    A team shouldn't have a prebuilt defensive structure for them. If there is one then the only use of builders is to repair and build ladders.

    Water is a great thing. I love water combat. This is coming from a KAG Classic Vet though. After playing classic for I think about a year and a half with no water and then seeing how amazing it is now after buying the Beta about a month ago I think all maps need a water aspect. Water is such a great thing to have. It can be used defensively, offensively, and just really adds a great aspect to the game.

    Maps should medium to large. Small maps get crowded. People run out of resources, get tired of playing them. With large maps it adds increased playtime and more room to be creative with your attacks and defenses.

    Flags should not be placed near the enemy team's flags. I noticed this on a few servers where it is just a huge rush to get the other person's first flag. Its not fun. Theres no skill. I don't like it.

    Flags should be spaced evenly and on the ground, not some floating island. This may just be because I still love playing Classic, but flags should be on the ground.
     
  14. ill just leave it here
    LOL
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2013
    Guitarman and kilmanio like this.
  15. Klokinator

    Klokinator Such Beta
    1. Aphelion's Roleplay

    Messages:
    1,443
    Whatever happened to having only one flag to capture? It used to be that in classic, the goal was to get to their heavily fortified spawn point and eventually capture their lone flag, then fight your way out with it. Now there's two flags, so getting the first flag is like "Yay... whoo... now to go get the other one >.>"
     
    Guitarman likes this.
  16. Guitarman

    Guitarman Haxor Tester Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    691
    I agree with klokinator, CTF seems more (for lack of a better word) 'arcadey' then it used too, and much less satisfying once you win.
    Until I see it utilized well, I say one flag is supreme.
    Also, TTH master game mode.
     
  17. Mazey

    Mazey Haxor Global Moderator Forum Moderator Staff Alumni Donator Official Server Admin

    Messages:
    1,916
    What makes a good map is good resource spreading, really.
    Also I really disagree with what @AsuMagic says, the amount of players shouldn't really depend on the amount of flags. Maps with 1 flag are indeed for less players but IMO boring in general. It's nice to play for instance 2v2 with 2 flags or even 3, it'd be boring to have 1 with any amount of people, maps should have 2 of 3 flags, always. Maybe 4, but that's hard to make (if you talk about balancing).
    For the rest, with Ej.